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#505557 - 03/20/11 02:08 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Bukkake Boy
Registered: 06/13/06
Posts: 611
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Quote:
With Saddam supporting terrorism and the world boycotting his oil anyway, going to Iraq supported our long-term financial and security interests.
Really? What kind of ROI calculator are you using?
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#505558 - 03/20/11 02:33 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Really? What kind of ROI calculator are you using?
There was a UN sponsored boycott of Iraqi oil. Media coverage of Saddan's manipulation of the oil for food program publized this. Iraq wasn't even pumping nearly all the oil they easily could have been out of the ground. You remove Saddam, UN boycott ends, Iraq pumps more oil increasing global oil supply, which influences oil prices downward. That benefits our economy greatly because of our "addiction" to oil.
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#505560 - 03/20/11 02:48 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 3509
Loc: Pit of Despair
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Obama got a hot tip that Libya has the WMDs now.
_________________________
Fap, Fap, Fap
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#505561 - 03/20/11 03:14 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 12903
Loc: 3 feet high and rising
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IMO, there is a big difference between air strikes and boots on the ground. Air strikes and bag men on the ground will facilitate change, w/o continued occupation. All we have to do is hope that whoever grabs power is easily bought.
_________________________
Thinking of cracked-out and/or tweaking whores getting their throats and asses brutalized for the next hit makes me hard. --Rear Admiral 
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#505562 - 03/20/11 04:19 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
IMO, there is a big difference between air strikes and boots on the ground. Air strikes and bag men on the ground will facilitate change, w/o continued occupation. All we have to do is hope that whoever grabs power is easily bought.
Yeah, there obviously is a big difference.
But war isn't straight forward. Obama's said Ghaddafi has to leave 3 cities he already occupies. Two of them are within 30 miles of Tripoli. Ghaddafi's already told Obama to fuck off. So, I'm not sure how you're convinced air strikes is necessarily going to facillitate change. If air strikes is all it takes to necessitate change, why wouldn't they just have done that in Iraq?
And, the Bush administration was convinced they wouldn't have to occupy Iraq for nearly so long. Their initial plan was one year. Things just don't go as planned.
But anyway, so the argument is the difference is Obama's willing to give up on the war if ground troops are required? They would definitely going to be required to get Ghaddafi outta those two cities. But, the idea is that Obama's willing to surrender before they have to enforce those demands?
Has he been telling Europe they shouldn't go in with ground troops? Or, as long as it's not American troops it's okay with him? That "artful" phrasing though, don't know if you can find moral imperative in it I consider necessary for war.
This post is jumbled because I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on. If I understood it, it'd be a lot shorter.
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#505564 - 03/20/11 05:25 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Rob Black's Crack Pipe
Registered: 12/20/10
Posts: 72
Loc: Between a brick and a hard pla...
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Quote:
Quote:
Really? What kind of ROI calculator are you using?
That benefits our economy greatly because of our "addiction" to oil.
What fraction of the interest on the debt incurred for the efforts do you imagine that benefit might be?
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#505565 - 03/20/11 06:00 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
But, I'm not arguing we should have gone to Iraq here.
Ummm, yes you are and you're full of shit. That escapade damn near killed the true mission, which was wiping out the jihadis in afghanistan.
Quote:
I just want to know why Obama's going to Libya.
If you need to ask why just do everyone a favor and keep your head up your arse and your mouth silent. I'm no fan of barry and I really don't care if Hilary has to shame him into action by proving she has the balls in the administration. All I care about is seeing that sonofabitch dead or in prison, preferably the former.
Congratulations, Nothrust: You've actually made me miss Belaborator.
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#505567 - 03/20/11 07:01 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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But that's the thing. I was never for Iraq and never believed the WMD story.
What Nothrust's bitching boils down to is the same shite that frootloop Pelosi did: Whatever the other guy does has to be wrong. And that's prima facie absurd, especially when it comes to the use of force. It's either justified (usually, but not always in our interests) or it ain't. Afghanistan: Yes. Libyaa: Yes. Iraq: No, although Saddam swinging wasn't a bad thing.
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#505568 - 03/20/11 07:02 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Full Disclosure here, though:
1) My ex's brother was killed in Iraq
2) Qaddaffi murdered a good friend of mine over Lockerbee, Scotland.
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#505569 - 03/20/11 08:19 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 8433
Loc: Great Pacific Northwest
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Quote:
Full Disclosure here, though:
1) My ex's brother was killed in Iraq
2) Qaddaffi murdered a good friend of mine over Lockerbee, Scotland.
Sorry for both your losses. I can understand that when it gets personal, it suddenly makes less entertaining. I've been making little atomic zombies jokes all week at work, mostly to good reactions, until a coworker was telling everyone about her pregnant daughter in law was hoping to catch a private flight from Tokyo by the weekend. I've been pretty quiet about it since.
I think I agree with you that north was just saying that what the other guy is doing is wrong. The thing is, we've been listening to that since the beginning of the Iraq war. I think a little backlash is politically justified. And as much as I'd love to jump on that bandwagon, I'm going to pass because, like you, I'd love to see this fucker dance on the end of a rope. If Barry follows the girls in to make that happen, oh well. I'm pretty OK with that. The ends justify the means.
_________________________
Having killed someone doesn't make you a killer- @KINGROCHE
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#505570 - 03/20/11 09:27 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
What fraction of the interest on the debt incurred for the efforts do you imagine that benefit might be?
I've got rough, completely unqalified to give, ideas that I won't bore you with. But, to give you an idea of oil's importance to the US economy, there was some study that floated through investment news sites that said if oil goes up to (it was somewhere around) $130/barrel), the US can't grow, it will necessarily be in recession while oil stays above that price. It's at $100/barrel now.
And, the US GDP is like $2T/year. So, whatever percentage we'd lose due to something as permanent as oil prices being too high and the GDP shrinking vs. growing like we normally do... A banking crisis we just went though is harder on an economy than most recessions because it freezes up money flows, affecting every sector of our economy. An oil recession would affect every sector to. But, scarce oil wouldn't be as temporary as a banking crisis, it'd last longer and so be more severe...
I just started typing out a bunch of shit, but it's pointless. I've read through this stuff before, but haven't memorized and am completely unqualified. Hopefully just you can just get some kind of round idea of what I'm thinking is the importance of oil...
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#505571 - 03/20/11 09:44 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Ummm, yes you are and you're full of shit. That escapade damn near killed the true mission, which was wiping out the jihadis in afghanistan.
Fucking up Afghanistan is a damn good argument against Iraq. But, that argument uses the benefit of hindsight. 20 years from now and with additional hindsight, if we have another ally in the middle east we can count on to go bomb Syria (it was in mid '00's? during Bush administration) or Iraq (in '80? during Reagan administration) when they start building a nuclear bomb. And, this ally isn't Israel who Arabs consider the little devil. If freedom does spread like Bush propagandized for. With another 20 years of hindsight, is it necessarily going to look like such obviously a dumb thing to have done?
Last time I started rambling about all this shit on this board was with Fatman. I made it clear I really don't know whether or not we should have gone to Iraq, just have mixed emotions about it. But, I'm not sure how much hindsight is useful in determining whether or not he made the right decision at the time.
Quote:
What Nothrust's bitching boils down to is the same shite that frootloop Pelosi did: Whatever the other guy does has to be wrong.
No, whether or not I agree with him, I find it interesting to try to understand people. And, I'm not getting this Obama guy. Jerkules made the best point. It's like Obama's head works in half-measures somehow. Where if we can do it easily then its okay. After all, would nearly as many people be bitching about Iraq if we had won 10 times more easily?
My head just doesn't work like that. If I'm going to do something as important as go to war...
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#505573 - 03/21/11 05:37 AM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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Gadhafi has the blood of many Americans on his hands and the Obama administration is using an approach similar to that utilized by 41, not 43. Cool Barry will handle this better than the Crawford, TX village idiot did in Iraq.
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#505574 - 03/21/11 06:02 AM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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Obama is an incompetent boob. The only thing that has gotten better in his time in office has been his golf game.
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#505576 - 03/21/11 07:27 AM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 5186
Loc: Joshua Tree National Park
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I'm thinking it is a preemptive strike on Quaddafi because Obama knows Q didn't pick Pitt to go to the Final Four in his bracket pool.
_________________________
I would eat Allie Sin's asshole until I got an emotion out of her.-Jerkules
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#505578 - 03/21/11 09:12 AM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 12903
Loc: 3 feet high and rising
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Eventually all of this regime change in the Middle East is going to bite us in the ass. Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, fine, we don't rely on them much. When Saudi Arabia, birthplace of most of the 9/11 guys, starts laying waste to protestors, using arms and chemicals that bare the Made in USA label, we gonna have big problems. They are already helping one of those fiefdoms they border, once there is mass uprising on their soil, we will be fucked. Russia and China will be pushing to go in, because any turmoil there will increase the value of their energy deals in Iran. If we use Security Council veto power, then the terrorists will have new motivation.
_________________________
Thinking of cracked-out and/or tweaking whores getting their throats and asses brutalized for the next hit makes me hard. --Rear Admiral
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#505579 - 03/21/11 11:34 AM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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I agree with Barry the Pirate. We should all hope for a good result.
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#505580 - 03/21/11 12:06 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 07/15/09
Posts: 12903
Loc: 3 feet high and rising
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Shit is getting rough in the Middle East. Yemen's military is starting to fracture You start to lose the backing of your military, you might as well start negotiating an exit.
_________________________
Thinking of cracked-out and/or tweaking whores getting their throats and asses brutalized for the next hit makes me hard. --Rear Admiral
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#505581 - 03/21/11 12:44 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 7597
Loc: a site known for its tolerance...
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The U.S. should just stay out of everywhere. They do nothing, people bitch, They do something, people bitch. Let these motherfuckers sort out their own mess.
_________________________
"I'll never forget the moment during the lovely Alyssa Allure's scene in 'American Bukkake' where the fellow got out of his wheel chair to ejaculate on her face. It was grotesque but had a certain frisson." -Sock
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#505585 - 03/21/11 08:27 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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Focus on the point made by J.B.. and others that Gadhafi has the Lockerbie blood of many Americans on his hands. Didn't the great German writer Thomas Mann teach us that everything must be paid for? Gadhafi deserves  or  .
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#505587 - 03/21/11 11:42 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Human Garbage
Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1574
Loc: DIEGO!
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Quote:
And, the US GDP is like $2T/year.
Um, US GDP is actually about $14T per year. It's our annual fiscal deficit that approaches $2T per year (more, if the $233B deficit that Obama ran up for February 2011 is the run rate for the year).
In other words, almost 14.3% of the entire economy is comprised of the hot checks the Federal Government kites each year. Returning the United States to its real level of economic activity (where the Federal government isn't splashing around fake dollars) will probably entail an immediate 20-30% drop in everyone's standard of living.
They -- our politicians -- have well and truly fucked all of us. Sure, one can argue that George Bush contributed to our problems, but his accumulated increase in the Federal debt over eight years was $2.5T, while Obama ran up more than that in his first two years. (And I suspect he might be able to top that just in one year, if reelected.)
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#505588 - 03/22/11 02:47 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Gadhafi has the blood of many Americans on his hands and the Obama administration is using an approach similar to that utilized by 41, not 43. Cool Barry will handle this better than the Crawford, TX village idiot did in Iraq.
Yeah, I was watching CNN last night. Apparently all Obama's hullabaloo that confused everybody about how tough he was being was based on how he's going to sanction Libya after the military force. But, he hasn't even gotten international support for it yet. It's not like Ghaddafi's going to care if we tell them we're not buying their oil. All he'll do is sell it to China. China might get a better deal, but Ghaddafi will still live like a king.
Now that Obama's defined the mission, I don't even have a problem with it. At least there's no obvious problems my amateur eyes can see.
But fuck did he mess up the public message. After the Arab League asked us to intervene, Obama had them going nuts about what the hell he was doing: Click
I don't know that the public message being so fucked up necessarily fucked up the effort itself. I just hope the private negotiations weren't fucked up that bad. Because for being a dictator, Ghaddafi was doing everything else we wanted. After the Iraq invasion, he completed opened up his country to inspections for WMD. Unlike Saddam who was doing everything we didn't want, e.g., defying UN sanctions, invading neighboring countries till we castrated him..
Ghaddafi was the role model for the other dictators that we wanted. If it was possible to save him as an ally we should have. Just how Obama handled the public message, if he fucked up the private negotiations that badly..
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#505589 - 03/22/11 02:53 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
"With Saddam supporting terrorism"
Wrong, stupid. Get that from Fox news, dumb ass?
You're not keeping up. Saddam had plenty of terrorists ties... Nothing to do with FOX News..
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#505590 - 03/22/11 03:13 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Um, US GDP is actually about $14T per year. It's our annual fiscal deficit that approaches $2T per year (more, if the $233B deficit that Obama ran up for February 2011 is the run rate for the year).
Yeah, that whole post on the economics of oil I did was fucked up. I was typing shit in and telling myself not to type it in because I wasn't current on a lot of it.
I think I got the $2T number because that's how much the federal government takes in in revenues yearly.
Did way too much browsing on the issue last night. Clearest thing I found was an economics professor's blog equating losing Libya oil mean we could lose 0.5% of GDP growth. Click
I'm not going to link all this stuff, because I didn't save all the links. But Iraq has significantly more oil than Libya and so would have a much bigger effect on our GDP. Iraq thinks they can ramp oil production up to similar levels as what Saudi Arabia is doing now. And, Saudi Arabia has "8 times the oil production of Libya": Click (that's a shitty link, but can't find the better BBC one I had right now...)
So, last year there was a number floating around saying we had spent $800 billion on Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined. Say it's $900 billion now. Then we've spent more on Iraq than Afghanistan, so guess $600 billion?
With a $15T per year GDP, people who are interested can do the math to get the fraction Wallbanger asks for. Considering how up in arms this country gets over temporary recessions, something as lasting as what our oil supply, it the fraction significant to me.
But no, adding even significant amounts of oil to global supplies shouldn't be a driving reason to go to war. But, I could easily see how frictions related to the oil supply would lead to war.. It's just something that should be considered when your looking at whether or not to go.
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#505591 - 03/22/11 04:57 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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When I posted that Obama would handle Libya better than 43 did Iraq, perhaps I set the bar rather low.
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#505592 - 03/22/11 05:02 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
You're not keeping up. Saddam had plenty of terrorists ties...
Name 'em.
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#505595 - 03/23/11 07:05 AM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 5287
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
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I'd have more support for this conflict if we could come up with a good anti-Quadaffi slogan to put on t-shirts & bumper stickers and sell them to rednecks. Like when I was a kid and every drunk redneck had a "Kiss my Assahola, you Ayatollah!" t-shirt on. Or during the Iraq thing, when you'd see rednecks with "Saddam Hussein = So Damn Insane!" bumper stickers. I support anything that exploits rednecks for profit. They're the real enemy. And they hate everything, so they're easy to exploit.
Now I need to go write a song about them towers that fell that day.
_________________________
"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
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#505597 - 03/23/11 01:34 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Name 'em.
It's not like I have names memorized. And, I'll spend time looking into interesting questions I'm curious as to the answer to. Not just left field nonsense people who are looking for any kind of argument to use against "the other side".
The terrorist angle is old that's been looked into plenty. Yet you still get guys on the left who'll just stand there and say "never happened".
The thing is, all those middle-eastern dictators have ties with terrorists organizations. Saddam was just another one. Well, there are exceptions, like Ghaddaffi, who had decided their biggest security threat was USA, so they severed just about any relations and opened up for inspection. Well Ghaddafi, till now. No doubt he's working the telephones, seeing if there any Al-Qaeda/Hezebollah crazies he can use to his advantage somehow.
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#505599 - 03/23/11 02:01 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Name 'em.
It's not like I have names memorized... hemmm... haw... HELP!!!
Aww, fer fuck's sake, Nothrust, just man up and admit you have no idea what you're talking about and got caught parroting the same tired lies that Bush and Fox have been spinning since '03. Or are you going to go on about non-existent WMD as well?
Quote:
The terrorist angle is old that's been looked into plenty...
Then why can't you name a single terrorist he supported? Not even one.
Saddam was a terrorist, all right, but the terror he inflicted was upon his own people and not remotely or by proxy. Qaddaffi's henchmen killed Americans over Lockerbee and in Germany.
Quote:
Nothing to do with FOX News..
Quote:
Yet you still get guys on the left who'll just stand there and say "never happened".
I am hardly "on the left," and the fact that you're using this ploy not only proves how ignorant you are, but that you'll accept anything from Fox as gospel.
Quote:
nonsense people who are looking for any kind of argument to use against "the other side".
You mean like asserting things as fact and then failing to produce a scintilla of evidence when called on it?
Go sit in the corner, Dunce.
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#505602 - 03/23/11 02:38 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
JB, I apologize but this is old news that is already well understood by informed people. It's just not interesting enough to me to go do a bunch of web searches any more. If you would like to educate yourself, you, or anyone else here who is interested, will have to do their own research. If you would like to remain ignorant, just carry on as now..
Res ipsa loquitor. Pipe down, pipsqueak.
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#505603 - 03/23/11 03:56 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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To my knowledge Saddam Hussein had connections with Palestinian organizations that might have committed terrorist acts against israelis, but not Americans. i believe that American use of military force ought to be used to promote American interests, and the ironic thing is that israel wasn't really even that keen for use to invade iraq as they view iran as the greater threat.
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#505604 - 03/23/11 05:05 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
To my knowledge Saddam Hussein had connections with Palestinian organizations that might have committed terrorist acts against israelis, but not Americans.
Whom? Abu Nidal? The guy who was sentenced to death in absentia by both the PLO/Fatah and the Jordanians? The guy who was declared persona non grata by both the Syrians and Qaddaffi? The guy whose tales were so tall that one of his Lieutenants said "If an American soldier tripped in some corner of the globe, Abu Nidal would instantly claim it as his own work?" Died of multiple gunshot wounds in Baghdad nearly a year before we invaded. Both The Sunday Times and Jane's suggest he was killed on Saddam's orders.
Or Hamas? Yeah, he sent them a few bucks, but it pales in comparison to his arch-enemies in Iran, who were sending them, at minimum, $30 Million annually.
Mostly, though, the groups he supported were Mujahadeen-e-Khalq, dedicated to the overthrow of the Iranian regime, and, ironically, a little group known as the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK in Turkish) that was fighting against the Turkish government. All in all, most of the "terrorism" he sponsored was directed at Tehran. Remember, Saddam was a secular dictator who had no use for the jihadis, nor they him.
But none of that's really the point. The point is that, once again, Nothrust hadn't a clue what he was talking about and looked like a tool.
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#505605 - 03/23/11 05:30 PM
Re: Why is Obama going to Libya?
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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Abu Nidal as well as Achille Lauro hijacker Mahmoud Abbas, but i agree with your overarching point that both were relative small fry. That motherfucker Abu Nidal's organization murdered an extremely distant relative of mine, an Arab BTW. Went to school with some Iranian kids back in the 70s who were MeK militants. Saw one in the Baltimore area in the 80s, but i fear the rest may have perished at Evin prison.
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