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#364679 - 10/03/08 03:07 PM
Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Someone emailed me with a question of this nature “Is there a Porn Minimum Wage. Now I suppose that this question has been rehashed over and over, time and time again....So I would just like to add my 2 cents to their question. The Federal government and some states have their own Minimum Wage laws. None of them addressing what adult performers/models make as a Minimum Wage nor do they have overtime, time and ½ working on holidays, split shift pay or anything to that effect.
From my understanding there are NO actual real laws on the books as in to mitigating Minimum Wages standards in reference to the adult industry. It usually depends on a number of factors that include….How hot the PW is, What age the PW is, What types(s) of scenes that the PW is willing to participate in, and to what level of experience they have (as in the REAL workplace) so either you’re a rookie or a veteran. Naturally demand would also be greater if the PW is really popular (millions of fans) or a total newbie (she ONLY shot one scene). I am sure that I have left quite a few out….but go on and add as you like.
So there are more then just a few general rules regarding this question and it cannot be answered on a simple OSHA poster on the wall informing workers of their rights and what the current federal/state Minimum Wage is.
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#364681 - 10/03/08 03:28 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I hope your kidding - but - same laws apply to PW as to any other employee -- they are working on OSHA regs for the industry and companies do get hit by IRS and the Franchise Tax Board in California.
Well then they should have a clear and concise wall poster visible in a conspicuous place with rates.....
From what I was always told...they always considered “independent contractors”...no heath benefits....no over time etc, etc.
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#364682 - 10/03/08 10:39 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 459
Loc: California
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Quote:
From what I was always told...they always considered “independent contractors”...no heath benefits....no over time etc, etc.
Sometimes yes, mostly no. Depends on the test, IRS uses a different IC v. EE test than does Dept of Industrial Relations than does the Franchise Tax Board.
A PW might be an IC for IRS purposes but could be a EE for insurance/overtime/wages purposes.
It really depends. Its a fact specific test. Nothing is B&W in law.
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#364683 - 10/03/08 11:48 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
From what I was always told...they always considered “independent contractors”...no heath benefits....no over time etc, etc.
Sometimes yes, mostly no. Depends on the test, IRS uses a different IC v. EE test than does Dept of Industrial Relations than does the Franchise Tax Board.
A PW might be an IC for IRS purposes but could be a EE for insurance/overtime/wages purposes.
It really depends. Its a fact specific test. Nothing is B&W in law.
Well that was sort of the crux of the thread.....simply just wages….not venturing into workman’s com, insurance…etc.
Wait staff in a restaurant make a guaranteed X amount per hour...tips not included.
And most other employees...even ones in unions have certain X amount of dollars as a starting base to work from.
From the ads posted on the net and in newspapers it usually runs this way make up to X amount of dollars per hr. or anywhere from 500 - 1500 per scene for pw’s.
Some thing like these-
http://www.dir.ca.gov/IWC/Minwage2007.pdf
Or even
http://www.dol.gov/esa/ofccp/regs/compliance/posters/pdf/minwageP.pdf
it would be quite interesting to see…..it would get a lot of whores from thinking they were supposta get paid more…..and the producers would know what to say when booking a scene…..ok your doing anal…well that’s 900…..ok then DONE…..no disputes….sure it would create a minimum rate from where a whore could at least start at. If she’s “the bomb” then she deserves a bigger paycheck……it would also sort of eliminate undercutting that some whores do to get the job…just by willing to work a lot less then their competition for a certain scene.
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#364684 - 10/04/08 02:18 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Pervert
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 2056
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Dino, a pw is worth exactly what a producent will pay her for a scene. Not a dollar more, not a dollar less. That's the basic rule of free market economy.
_________________________
"If you keep making fun of me, I might just get pissed and not post on here anymore. Start taking me seriously. I'm a student now" Fatja
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#364685 - 10/04/08 12:30 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Dino, a pw is worth exactly what a producent will pay her for a scene. Not a dollar more, not a dollar less. That's the basic rule of free market economy.
By that statement…all the producers could schedule a meeting and collude to drive prices down…….tell all the whores that all b/g scenes are $200 across the board. Scenes can be related to lets say gasoline prices. Shit the production companies could start there own version of OPEC by that standard.
Edited by Cristal Connors (10/05/08 01:56 AM)
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#364687 - 10/04/08 02:55 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
By that statement…all the producers could schedule a meeting and collude to drive prices down
That would almost certainly be a collusive business practice and thereby an unlawful restraint of trade, which would bring the FTC and others into the picture. That issue aside, some producers would not abide by the agreement, would offer more $, and thus get the top talent. The colluding producers would end up with scabby crack ho's.
Naturally it would be a collusive business practice…but who would honestly look into the matter…..some pw complain to their congressman……give me a break.
You’re also forgetting about where the origins of the “adult” film business started or at least how the mainstream media’s portrayal of its beginnings…. It was very much corrupt and slightly mobbed up…..I am sure if someone got out of line and decided to pay more for a top whore…..they might get a visit……end up in Cedars-Sinai Medical Center or someplace worse like the morgue.
Then again maybe I watch too many Martin Scorsese & Francis Ford Coppola movies.
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#364689 - 10/04/08 06:33 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
There should be something set. Mainstream Hollywood, forgot the term they used, is something around a thousand and some change. Unless the actors waive the fee for their "art". I read many in the Wonderland movie weren't paid at all because the budget was so low.
But while many pornographers make millions and keep on making a fortune for years to come off of the talent, many girls and guys live check to check.
check to check.....welcome to the real world....but the "legit" film makers and actors have their unions.....
such as SAG...screen actors guild and even the extras have a set rate of what they are getting paid....nothing less. Its called scale rates. here is one schedule of minimum rates-
http://www.sag.org/files/documents/Interactive%20Rate%20Sheet.pdf
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#364691 - 10/04/08 08:00 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
That's the word, scale.
Quote:
check to check.....welcome to the real world
But the real world doesn't profit from those 5 or 10 movies you made ten years ago for the next 50 years in compilations.
only mega “legit” actors get points and percentages of gross domestic and int box office....merchandising....etc, yadda yadda yadda. Remember this is the world of porn....the ultimate owner of the actual content is the real winner….because they have the final word and make the final buck.
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#364694 - 10/04/08 09:13 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
No one starts off with residuals right from their first movie. The only one that did I believe was Marylin Chambers. She thought she was going in for a mainstream call. She got there and found out it was porn and started to walk away until the Mitchell Brothers stopped her. She jokes and said $25,000 and 10% of the gross. Then she walked away and didn't expect anything but got the call frm the Mitchell Brothers later that night.
I believe you only now get residuals if you break away from your old contract and get a new contract with residuals. Or do what Jenna Jameson did and marry rich where your husband starts "your" company for you.
Residuals and percentages are very rare...and only for "A" listers. Anyone claming they will pay a "no-name" in those terms is a certified....bonafide scamster. You have to have a contract that has been looked over by a "real" adult entertainment lawyer and a third party verification system and then you have to have an auditor and CPA/Accountant to do the rest....the real "legit" business are "shady" enough....but come on lets call a spade a spade.....the adult business in itself is what it is.
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#364696 - 10/04/08 09:29 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
By that statement…all the producers could schedule a meeting and collude to drive prices down
Somewhere, the ghost of Adam Smith is smiling upon you.
Quote:
That would almost certainly be a collusive business practice and thereby an unlawful restraint of trade, which would bring the FTC and others into the picture.
Fuck, they have a hard enough time bringing obscenity charges against producers. Even Max's conviction has a good chance of being overturned. You think they're going to bring restraint of trade charges?
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#364697 - 10/04/08 10:55 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Max Hardcore Prison Bitch
Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 259
Loc: in your white wife
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Quote:
But it should be mandatory that everyone gets residuals. You do in mainstream Hollywood and the music industry. Porn supposedly makes more than those two combined but many of the performers make next to nothing while the pornographers make millions.
PW's make alot of money they just dont know how to save and invest like money smart people if they did most PW's would have multi million dollar bank accounts when they retire their warn out assholes.
So you cant look at the production companys as the root of all evil PW's are broke becuase they brought it on there selvs choosing to invest money on drugs that get them higher instead of doing business ventures so  cry me a river.
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#364700 - 10/05/08 04:18 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 459
Loc: California
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Quote:
Residuals and percentages are very rare...and only for "A" listers. Anyone claming they will pay a "no-name" in those terms is a certified....bonafide scamster. You have to have a contract that has been looked over by a "real" adult entertainment lawyer and a third party verification system and then you have to have an auditor and CPA/Accountant to do the rest....the real "legit" business are "shady" enough....but come on lets call a spade a spade.....the adult business in itself is what it is.
More and more contracts are including residuals now... All most every toy deal involves residuals. And depending on how you look at it almost all of the internet website deals are a form of residual pay, the girls get a percentage of gross/net on the backend.
We are becoming more like mainstream every day. As for minimums Dino, what you are suggesting requires negotiating between the producers and talent which is collective bargaining which is the basis for a union. Welcome to mainstream entertainment.
No one breaks legs anymore... unfortunately. There is something about the good old days.
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#364701 - 10/05/08 12:00 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Pervert
Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 2058
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No offense but I think the question of porn minimum wage is a non-issue given the way the industry works and the talent being independent contractors in essence. The industry lives in the shadow of a legal technicality and so the saying "anything goes" in adult video production is mostly true.
That said, I'm actually all _for_ female talent being comp'd as much as possible, and if possible to cut in on profit sharing especially if they form a relationship with a company, and simply for the selfish reason that higher rates in theory means higher caliber talent magnetically drawn to "a life of sex over a life of desk". Higher rates form a path of lesser resistance between "undecided female" at 'Point A' and porn studio and 'Point B.' For many females, if they have no college aspirations then some try trawling for a sugardaddy at a bar or club first to look for sex work under binding longterm contract (aka marriage), but since sugardaddies are putting out less sugar these days due to ever increasing options, "point B" at the porn studio is increasingly more viable to the undecided female, at least the ones that aren't bother by social stygmas.
I think most people would agree that over the last 10-20 years, the "sea level" of female talent has risen from ladies with a full winterbush that looked like your aunt and quite possibly slept under a truck the night before, to many women that are hotter than runway models in mainstream fashion. So the quality of talent has progressively increased and that may well be _because_ rates actually have been steadily going up.
As for the sentiment by some that female talent is somehow too "dumb" to invest or save their money, that's presumptive. People are mistaking what may be more of a natural lack of curiosity and interest in finance with a lack of intelligence. Whether evolution, the education system or the great scapegoat 'society' is to blame, is of course another topic.
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#364702 - 10/05/08 01:07 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
Residuals and percentages are very rare...and only for "A" listers. Anyone claming they will pay a "no-name" in those terms is a certified....bonafide scamster. You have to have a contract that has been looked over by a "real" adult entertainment lawyer and a third party verification system and then you have to have an auditor and CPA/Accountant to do the rest....the real "legit" business are "shady" enough....but come on lets call a spade a spade.....the adult business in itself is what it is.
More and more contracts are including residuals now... All most every toy deal involves residuals. And depending on how you look at it almost all of the internet website deals are a form of residual pay, the girls get a percentage of gross/net on the backend.
We are becoming more like mainstream every day. As for minimums Dino, what you are suggesting requires negotiating between the producers and talent which is collective bargaining which is the basis for a union. Welcome to mainstream entertainment.
No one breaks legs anymore... unfortunately. There is something about the good old days.
Sometimes you have to be concise when speaking to somewhat dimwitted people…..not to say that the readers of the boards are uneducated…but clarity is the best way for some of the PW’s to learn.
I could see that with the merchandising (aka “Adult Toy") deals but that would defiantly be for the seasoned veteran PW’s, Contract Girls and “A” listers….
Now when you speak of website internet deals you mean for THEIR own almost “branded” website and NOT for lets say Naughty America or Bang Bros type websites. That I can believe but like I said before…..you would certainly need a 3ed party verification service in place…..since shaving happens very frequently in affiliate programs or at least that’s what I was led to believe if you read webmaster boards such as GFY.
Porn unions….That would be the greatest thing to see on the local/national/cnn news ever…….(reporters voice) well we are in week 4 of the porn actors strike…..that would be really funny…and a bit entertaining as well. It would however totally legitimatize the industry in general…just like the International Brotherhood of Teamsters or the Federation of Professional Athletes they could have a PAC to keep the federal government at bay and a “pension fund” for the dumb dumbs that don’t know how to control their spending habits.
Yeah I have been watching way too much Casino, Goodfellas & the Godfather trilogy lately.
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#364703 - 10/05/08 03:17 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Kurt Lackwood's Fluffer
Registered: 07/28/07
Posts: 1130
Loc: The Mystic Knights of the Sea ...
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Since porn appears to be an "in-the-now" type of business, I think any PW who reduces her scene rate for a piece of the back end is asking for trouble. In an industry where bouncing talent checks is a business strategy, do you think a PW who lowers her anal rate to $500 upfront with profit sharing will get a lot more through residuals on that scene? The only "back end" I see her getting was the cock that violated her anus.
_________________________
"I'm a minor character in my own story", Steve Coogan as Tony Wilson in 24 Hour Party People
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#364704 - 10/06/08 05:48 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Human Garbage
Registered: 07/07/08
Posts: 1621
Loc: Hell
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Quote:
List of PW's who were smart enough to save money and invest in there own production companys.
Jill Kelly
Jewl Denile
Jenna Jameson
if I am missing any feel free to add to the list.
Jenna Jameson? Jay started ClubJenna with his money, not hers. She never had anything to do with CJ and was only the spokesperson. She also doesn't run a single one of "her" other business and is only paid to front them.
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#364707 - 10/06/08 10:10 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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ADT regular
Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 11
Loc: between here and there
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I should add that I worked at a strip club that was prosecuted for collusive practices, so I have some experience with the subject. The club owner and several nearby owners got together and agreed on setting equal prices on drinks and covers. One squealed and the matter never even went to trial. Together the four indicted club owners ponied up around $2 million in a settlement.
_________________________
Twenty years from now, you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did.
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#364708 - 10/06/08 10:10 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 4470
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Quote:
Someone emailed me with a question of this nature “Is there a Porn Minimum Wage. Now I suppose that this question has been rehashed over and over, time and time again....So I would just like to add my 2 cents to their question. The Federal government and some states have their own Minimum Wage laws. None of them addressing what adult performers/models make as a Minimum Wage nor do they have overtime, time and ½ working on holidays, split shift pay or anything to that effect.
Correction Crystal (Dino), PW's do have overtime. It's called hooking.
_________________________
Because you already yelled 'dropping prices!!!' after Red Light canned you. - Gia Jordan to Brandon Iron
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#364709 - 10/06/08 11:50 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
I should add that I worked at a strip club that was prosecuted for collusive practices, so I have some experience with the subject. The club owner and several nearby owners got together and agreed on setting equal prices on drinks and covers. One squealed and the matter never even went to trial. Together the four indicted club owners ponied up around $2 million in a settlement.
The (federal/state even) government always treads lightly when working cases around anything related to pornography. Because they know…it gives porn in general free press…..they never what to try and jeopardize some type of ruling where it would further legitimize pornography in general…..Look what happened to Janine who was just busted for tax evasion by the IRS…..she was just as Max is now a sacrificial lamb…an EXAMPLE……but as the line goes……all girls want to make it like Jenna…..that is because she is the exception and most defiantly NOT the rule. How many PW’s, Peelers and Whores don’t list the actual amounts that they receive or embellish on deductions on the tax forms when they do or even if they actually file come April 15. The porn industry makes a shitload of money…..but it is still small in size by standards of lets say the legitimatization of Las Vegas…..from totally mobbed up to total corporate ownership…hell you cant get a job in a place that employs gaming employees since you must be registered with the state gaming control board and for any other real jobs you have to get a “work card” from LVMPD. Either way you will have to pass both FBI fingerprint check and the NCIC as well. Now still going with how small the real porn industry is…how hard would it really be to keep the pay rate fixing a secret….if it only involves the key players who are going to make a major windfall profit by not having to pay…any talent…from any side of the industry real money. Think of it as if all “fast food” restaurants paid their hourly workers at $15.00 to $20.00 an hr instead of minimum wage….imagine what losses that industry would take by paying those sorts of rates to their employees. It’s just a matter of reverse psychology and knowing how to keep your mouth shut…in the case of your squealer...then again the squealer might not make it to court. Then we have what’s known in court as case dismissed.
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#364710 - 10/06/08 11:53 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Correction Crystal (Dino), PW's do have overtime. It's called hooking.
You know the law...when they arrive at PW status...it isn’t merely hooking anymore....it’s called..."privates"
Usually involves the pw giving the clients "privates" a good working.
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#364711 - 12/16/08 01:34 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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ADT regular
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 8
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Quote:
...I think most people would agree that over the last 10-20 years, the "sea level" of female talent has risen from ladies with a full winterbush that looked like your aunt and quite possibly slept under a truck the night before, to many women that are hotter than runway models in mainstream fashion.
Aaaahahhaha - brilliant.
Aside from being funny, Brandon's comment is smart because he is focusing on the quality of the work product and not merely the costs. I'm browsing these forums for the first time and amazed at the extent of small-minded griping about petty costs. Where is the big strategic thinking about improving the quality of the work product?
Brandon seems like he's the only person on these boards with "vision" (as that term is generally applied to business entrepreneurs).
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#364712 - 12/16/08 03:09 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Ed Hardy Wearing Loser
Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 35
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Pornlaw wrote:
We are becoming more like mainstream every day.
Exept when it comes to health and safety. A dog being used in a MAINSTREAM film has more health and safety protection that does a porn performer. For that matter, insects used in the mainstream movies have more protection than porn performers. How does this multibillion dollar industry(lol) get away with treating its workers worse than insects. How do performers feel knowing that they are treated as less than insects?
Edited by dippy (12/16/08 03:11 PM)
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#364714 - 12/16/08 03:20 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
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Dippy wrote: "A dog being used in a MAINSTREAM film has more health and safety protection that does a porn performer." That has more to do with the (fucked up) way society treats and looks at animals than with the porn industry. Animals are more human than human.....  lol @ tampon
_________________________
The only thing you got that I want, is your suffering.
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#364715 - 12/16/08 03:43 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Ed Hardy Wearing Loser
Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 35
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Quote:
Dippy wrote:
"A dog being used in a MAINSTREAM film has more health and safety protection that does a porn performer."
That has more to do with the (fucked up) way society treats and looks at animals than with the porn industry.
Animals are more human than human.....
lol @ tampon
I agree. I guess thats why we now have 'animal rights activists.' But it is even funnier that NOBODY in the porn biz even cares about the health and safety issue,(or should i say non-issue,), and this has been proven over the years by the comlete lack of any type of protection whatsoever. The monthly HIV test is not for the performers, but a way for the producers to have some sort of deniability regarding HIV on their sets. All the other stuff is just conveniantly IGNORED. Any performer who thinks an HIV test is 'required' for HEALTH reasons is simply wrong. It is to provide protection for the producer. If there was no possible financial penalty for HIV being transmitted on a set then the producers would not care one way or another if the talent was tested. Only in porn.
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#364717 - 12/16/08 10:39 PM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 459
Loc: California
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Quote:
The monthly HIV test is not for the performers, but a way for the producers to have some sort of deniability regarding HIV on their sets. All the other stuff is just conveniantly IGNORED. Any performer who thinks an HIV test is 'required' for HEALTH reasons is simply wrong. It is to provide protection for the producer. If there was no possible financial penalty for HIV being transmitted on a set then the producers would not care one way or another if the talent was tested. Only in porn.
Hmmm... Do you think that financial penalties do not account for why animals are treated the way they are on set ? Someone owns that trained dog and they could be sued if the dog is killed on set. And if the dog was earning $10K a month, the owner could have a sizable claim against the insurance company that insured the production. If insurance companies would insure porn productions more, everything would change.
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#364718 - 12/19/08 07:39 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
The monthly HIV test is not for the performers, but a way for the producers to have some sort of deniability regarding HIV on their sets. All the other stuff is just conveniantly IGNORED. Any performer who thinks an HIV test is 'required' for HEALTH reasons is simply wrong. It is to provide protection for the producer. If there was no possible financial penalty for HIV being transmitted on a set then the producers would not care one way or another if the talent was tested. Only in porn.
Hmmm... Do you think that financial penalties do not account for why animals are treated the way they are on set ? Someone owns that trained dog and they could be sued if the dog is killed on set. And if the dog was earning $10K a month, the owner could have a sizable claim against the insurance company that insured the production. If insurance companies would insure porn productions more, everything would change.
That will never happen.
The government has always wanted to never legitimize the industry too much so therefore it generally has had a Laissez-faire attitude towards those types of things.
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#364719 - 12/19/08 07:45 AM
Re: Porn Minimum Wage
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
...I think most people would agree that over the last 10-20 years, the "sea level" of female talent has risen from ladies with a full winterbush that looked like your aunt and quite possibly slept under a truck the night before, to many women that are hotter than runway models in mainstream fashion.
Aaaahahhaha - brilliant.
Aside from being funny, Brandon's comment is smart because he is focusing on the quality of the work product and not merely the costs. I'm browsing these forums for the first time and amazed at the extent of small-minded griping about petty costs. Where is the big strategic thinking about improving the quality of the work product?
Brandon seems like he's the only person on these boards with "vision" (as that term is generally applied to business entrepreneurs).
Does the Brandon have an affiliate program for his sites....he does have a site...or something right?
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