In the storm thread I went off on your Basic Societal Responsibilities concept. What are they? What are the BSRs?

In what circumstances should a profit be made?

Caring for those who cannot care for themselves. Law enforcement and prisons. Health care. Education at a basic level, although there is a place for private higher education. Soldiers. Regulatory enforcement. Administration of public lands (I oppose contracting out services at Nat'l Forests). Disaster relief, first responders.

Contract supervision for things we can only do collectively, such as infrastructure, defense, basic research, and yes, there is room for the arts.

Plenty of room for capitalist enterprises, I believe strongly in that. I look around me and see many things I purchased from for-profit businesses, my house, truck, RV, motorcycles, this computer, my Gag Factors, food, dog meds. I was part of the military-industrial complex, working for companies that got Gov't contracts to develop weapons systems. Scientists and engineers, not mercenaries.

Of course, neither of these are all-inclusive lists.

How do we define "not being able to care for one's self"?

Why health care and not food? Water?

Doctors do not deserve to make a profit? Who else doesn't deserve to profit from their labors? Besides RV builders?

You realize that infrastructure is more the highways, no? The "grid" has always been privately run, excepting the TVA, which has worked pretty well. A lot of eggs got broken in that. Railroads were built by robber barons using essentially slave labor. Tear it all up?

How is there "room" for the arts? Seriously. Where does the cash come from to support the arts? The bucket is overflowing. Or do you not see that? As a half baked artist, the last thing I need or want is government "approval".

There aren't enough family doctors in Canada as most move to other countries in order to make more money.

You failed. Much like the clown you voted for

That's cool. I don't know why I thought you had worked for the USPS.

Because he retired at 50?

because he reminded you of Cliff Claven?

So, after dancing around this issue, doctors should not profit, because the ones in the UK and Canada are 'doing fine". And there should be someone, a group of citizens good and true, who decide what "doing fine" will look like? and this will improve the quality of health care, like in the UK and Canada? Or does quality not matter as long as the profit motive is removed?

I'm all for taking care of the disabled. Do we take care of the "unemployed" forever? No cut off length of benefits? What's "etc"? I'm pinning you down because I really want to know what's in your head. I've already gotten that docs in the UK and Canada are "doing fine", but don't know the "details". I'm curious what other details you're ignorant of, yet can somehow be an expert.

What does regulated food and water look like, being that they're not BESs like health care? Should there be profit taking in food? I mean, no food or water, that equals illness...and control, yes? But no corporations should be built around preventing illness?

Higher taxes to pay for art? There's pretty much the bottom line, no? No extravagance is too much because the government can just take more money from the average citizen at the point of a gun. That's a great world you envision, chuck.

In your utopia, what do we do with the already existing corporations involved with your BESs? Government takeover ala WWII? Or just shut them down, no matter the human cost?

What's the difference between government and corporations?

Yeah, your man Romney really gives a lot of details.

I guess you are happy with the current corporate sick care system, OK.

Food and water are currently regulated by the government. We are relatively safe. Giant agribusiness is making a profit. I'm OK with that.

Any civilized society promotes culture and art, and it is important we have programs and museums to promote and preserve these things.

No, I don't want to have the government take over anybody. The best I can really hope for is single payer health care, and service contracts (prisons, etc.) to expire.

Government, in this country, is accountable to the law and the people, through their elected officials and the courts. Corporations are accountable to the fiduciary responsibility to make profit for shareholders. This is the big reason things like health care and prisons should be run by the Government, not by corporations. We need to have an interest in keeping people healthy, and rehabilitating and humanely housing prisoners, not seeing how much money can be made off people's misery.

Society and government are not the same thing.

Awwww...humanely housing and "rehabbing" prisoners. How's the last 40 years of rehabbing prisoners worked for you? I know, they're all Morgan Freeman in Shawshank. The touchy feely approach has been fantastic.

I am happy with my health care. my insurance is pretty good, and I really don't need the gov to "help" me with it. I have no problem with helping the folks who need help getting it. But there's absolutely no reason to chuck the whole thing and and force people into a one size fits all program. Again, at the point of a gun.

Tell me, chuck, what do you do when you get sick? Go to Canada's superior clinics? if the system is so "sick", do you your mouth is?

Romney's not my man by a long shot. You drank the purple drank, not me.

So nice that you approve of farmers making a profit.

Single payer health care, as it's presented, is the gov taking over health care. Don't play stupid. Or maybe you just are, what with your pride in voting for someone without the qualifications to work in state Weights and Measures.

Anecdotal here, folks were going to meetings in prison and some stayed sober after they got out. Then truth in sentencing and private contractors took over prisons here, and that all went away.

Prisons are being used as a place to stash mentally ill and addicted folks. All for profit. It is obscene treatment of our fellow suffering citizens. Instead of having good community mental health, state mental hospitals, and substance abuse treatment.

You don't want Obama because he is black, you MUST want Romney. He's your man, period. You get all that comes with the Republicans if you oppose Obama. Just like I get killer drones with him.

Yes, single payer is as close as we come to Government taking over health care. That's what I want, Government run health care. Like Canada and the UK.

So Barry, what role, if any, should the Federal Government play in disaster relief?

As much as I think you are an asshat I have to agree on this point.

On the issue of the giant agribusiness making a profit. You said you are OK with that. There is a distinct difference between the giant agribusinesses and your hardworking farmer. The giants like Monsanto are producing GMO food products that are slowly poisoning the American population all in the name of increased profits. Do some poking around on the subject and see how they are genetically modifying seeds with "Roundup" because they manufacture it.

I don't want Obama because he's a socialist , lying asshat !

I covered that pretty extensively in the storm thread:

""Emergency" is the second word in the agency's name. They are never going to do it right. It's a far from perfect world, and we're just deluding ourselves if we think we're not at it's mercy. So no matter who is running the show, disaster aid- wise, there are going to be pissed off people. Nature of the beast.

Personally, I think things are set up just about as well as they're going to be. FEMA doesn't operate in a vacuum. There are churches, charities, big companies, small companies, NGOs...individuals who go to Costco and buy a skid of bottled water. Is it perfect? No way. It never will be.

But the proof is in the puddin, to coin a phrase. When there's an earthquake in some Third World hellhole, who gets the call? The Kenyans? Fuck no. It's the good ol' Great Satan. There's a reason for that. The System does the best it can in really terrible situation.

When we lived in God's Country, there was some major flooding and FEMA rolled in. When it was all done the biggest kerfuffle was over some local vendors getting together to rig the bidding process. No big deal. When they were done, FEMA left. I'm not a big buyer of the FEMA Shadow Government conspiracy stuff.

As for Romney wanting to privatize FEMA, I can't defend it. We probably also disagree on the weed issue. And whether to give our garbagemen just a fist bump or a full on sort of creepy slightly grinding hug. Who fucking cares? I held my nose to vote for him...unlike this McKenna cat that going to swipe the Wa. Governor's Mansion. You're never going to get a perfect candidate. Well, Chuck did. Black? Check. Post- colonial Socialist? Check. Completely unqualified? But Black? Check. Goddesses, this is great KoolAde."

I have no beef with FEMA and I have no beef with Fed involvement in disaster relief. It's a national security issue. Given a really fucked up situation, the Feds, NGOs, everyone involved is doing the best they possibly can...with the exception of Bloomberg, who appears to be stupid. And it's unfair to throw blame for the storm and/ or the aftermath on any POTUS, the Pretender included. It's the worst kind of dirty politics, no matter who the guy being blamed is.

I'm not going to go round and round with you about Romney being "my guy". I voted for Romney because his agenda is closer to mine than his opponent's. Holding my nose, is what I think I said. You, on the other hand, have deluded yourself into believing that voting for the Pretender is somehow a patriotic move. I cite your sig.

What's the most money someone should earn? I'm guessing you could pull a number out your ass pretty easily. And with people being people, some will make more than the approved amount. What should happen to them when they do? And what should happen to the money?

I'm there with the Monsanto vs. a farmer. I'm pretty middle ground tho. "Organic" fruit just looks terrible...sick looking. I needs pesticides in my citrus.

On the other hand, when we're talking about using food as a fuel (huge mistake), I have no problem with Monsanto genetically fucking with corn...as long as that corn is exclusively for fuel and doesn't end up in the food supply.

We already have government run health care: the VA. I hope the socialized health care works out as well as the VA has.

No upper limit. There should be a more progressive tax code.

It's like pulling teeth. And that ^ would like...?

How old was Emo in this pic?