since the 10th anniversary is a-comin, i wanted to get some idea if you folks are inundated by lunatics who are still convinced it's some vast conspiracy. For the record, i have pretty much given up arguing with them; there is no point really. Germy Steal posts tons of lulzy shit on Lib (Btw he also bleebs vaccines are teh deadly, hiv is a myth, and the moonlanding was faked. no i'm not kidding) but other than that I really don't bother any more. Oh and here's a real good article.

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/11-09-07/#feature

Not around here.

You know, if it was a conspiracy, by the 5 guys that secretly run the world, it would be less scary. The fact that a couple shit heads with box cutters and minimal flight training could pull it off makes anything possible.

Check the Obama administration, there are still plenty of Truthers hiding in there.

Check Alex Jones and his web sites. He is the godfather of truthers. Mention the Illuminati, globalists, bankers, Bildeberg, Bohemian Grove, and watch him foam at the mouth.

Check 80 meters on ham radio. They lurk there too.

ha they are easy pickins on teh interwebz.it's 'top secret' knowledge, yet he somehow manages to broadcast it 24/7 without getting snuffed by the shadowy men.

I was always a conspiracy buff. Some stuff I bought into (various JFK theories),some not so much (Bircher and LaRouche stuff). 9/11 was a game changer for me. I'm not sure why. Maybe the enormity of the whole affair. Maybe because it was playing out on tv in front of the world. I think it was when the phone calls started coming out. I know the first time I cried was when they started talking about the phone calls. It brought it home, I guess.

By Tuesday afternoon when the Truther movement started, there was no fun to be had, at least for me. Debating how hot steel has to be to melt, 3000 Jews calling in sick, "explosive paint", orders to shoot down planes...or not shoot them down, ditching Flight 93 in the Marianis (jondra?) Trench. Easy easy stuff to refute and make the ones who claim this stuff look like douchebags. I'm normally up for bullying the addlepated. I just couldn't get into it. I couldn't make it fun. It was like the Congresswoman in Arizona getting shot. I thought the politicizing of it, when there was no evidence that politics played any role in it....actually the opposite appeared to be the case...was damaging to the country a whole. Same thing with the Truthers. Malcontents, attention pigs, tinfoil hat wearers. All so hung up in getting their 15 minutes that they don't care about about the pain they cause the families and friends that lost living, breathing human beings. Why would I even give them any attention, let alone waste my perfectly good abuse on them?

All that said, I've run into to 2 people in my circle who at least dabble in Trutherism. It was pretty brutal. They back off pretty quick, but that's just blood in the water. I have no tolerance for this bullshit in my friends. None. I punch holes in their theories in the most insulting ways possible. I feel I...owe...it to them.

^^^ For all the thousands of conspiracy theories out there, there are a handful that have somewhat of the ring of truth to them. even amongst the non-conspiracy minded. My personal favorite is that John Lennon was killed on the orders of G.H.W. Bush and Bill Casey. Yours may vary, but we've each got one that we want to be true.

It's when you get to this 9/11 shite that it gets problematic. Having had a front-row seat for the event, I can assure you that, even if W and company wanted to pull something like that off, they'd never in a million years been able to do it.

I was there. It really happened and Bush/Cheney had nothing to do with it.

A little OT but what was the reasoning behind the Lennon Bush/Casey theory.

Nixon exerted a lot of energy trying to get dude deported. He was tight, not only with Rubin & Hoffman, but also with McGovern. It got resolved in '75, shotly after Nixon was forced to quit, but, coincidentally or not, that's when he started his five-year recording hiatus. Then, he starts recording again right after Reagan is elected, and at the exact same time as the so-called "October Surprise," which does have more than the ring of truth...

I dunno. It's prolly bullshit as well, but if you've gotta have a pet conspiracy theory, it's a decent one.

^^^ I'm curious too.

Oh, I think they all have a ring of truth on some level. Mostly because real life doesn't wrap up all neatly and there's no Horatio Caine to pull off his sunglasses and act poorly before the final credits. There are holes and inconsistencies and bad memories. People under pressure say oddball things off the cuff. And nature abhors a vacuum. It's also hard to stomach that a bunch of 8th Century minded Bedouins could fuck things up so badly. Just like it's tough to stomach that an unbalanced nobody loser could kill a President. But that's who does that kind of thing.


Sometimes, actually most times, things are as they appear. What did W say on South Park? It was the most perfectly planned operation ever, ever. How many people would have to have been involved in any of the theories beyond a bunch of pissed off Arabs? 100? 500? 1000? Yet 10 years later not a single one has gotten a little queasy about it and called up Alex Jones. Not one.

My seat was 3000 miles away, and I wish yours wasn't so close. But it doesn't take a front row seat, or a degree in engineering, or anything beyond common sense to know that what we saw was what we saw.

It was a rough day all around, but I have to admit that the history junkie in me won't let me stay away from the coverage. It was the defining moment of the last 50+ years. If nothing else I owe it to my kid to tell him about it the way my dad told me about Pearl Harbor and JFK.

Google "COINTELPRO." I watched a documentary on Jimi Hendrix's death called JIMI HENDRIX: THE LAST 24 HOURS. FOIA requests revealed that musicians, Hendrix and Lennon included, were put on government watch lists due to their popularity and influence. Plans were made on how to deal with Hendrix as he got closer to the Black Panthers. Some speculate Hendrix was murdered.

A good doc on Lennon is THE U.S. VS. JOHN LENNON. Speaking out against the government and/or its wars will get you in all kinds of trouble.

Wait. The October Surprise was the month prior to Reagan being elected. Which wouldn't have made any difference in the election. Nothing short of video of the Gipper being assrammed by Sinatra would've saved Carter.

Lennon wasn't doing any serious recording, but he was making sporadic public appearances. He and Yoko guest hostedMike Douglas for a week. Viet Nam was over, so there wasn't that to rail about. During this time was when his kid was born, too and by all accounts he was into the Mr. Mom thing. Plus, I think he had a pretty junk addiction going.

Nixon did have a hard on for Lennon, tho. The "counter- culture" was a real burr in his saddle.

I dunno. It sounds bullshit, but it's a fun and fresh conspiracy. A certain panache' the Truthers don't have.

I'm ready to believe the FBI killed MLK.

The drum major?

Yeah, and right before Chapman, he'd just released his first album in five years. It was shite, but that's besides the point.

The whole theory's probably shite as well, but if fucktards like Germy Steal are going to are going to be dumb about 9/11 I'll toss this one into the mix.

Hey, Guess what? It's ten years later. I was there when it happened. I'm still here. I'm doing better than I've ever done, even when I was wealthier.



And Osama is dead.

I never once thought we were behind it, but I find it hard to believe that the gubment' isn't hiding a lot of facts.

My favorite is "the Pentagon was hit by a missile, not a plane" theory. Okay Einsteins, what happened to the plane that was hijacked and all the people on it then?

No idea. Then again, why didn't one single video camera get a clear image of the plane crashing into the Pentagon. Why were titanium Rolls Royce engines not found intact? Why were no trees or lightposts damaged in the final seconds of descent? Why did the impact create a tunnel and not leave any damage from wings? Is it reasonable that the plane disintegrated upon impact, as explained?

Maybe it was "The Philadelphia Experiment" by air gone horribly awry by raghead intervention ? The victims are all alive and well somewhere in the past concocting conspiracy theories and were replaced by meat dummies as in "Millenium". < That's pretty much how I view most conspiracy theories....sci fi !

I hope sci fi explains how the building near the WTC, not hit by debris or planes, suddenly collapsed, too. Strange days.

^^^fucking kook

1) It was flown to Cleveland where the passengers were offloaded and "abducted". The plane was ditched in the Mirianis Trench.

Or, if that's one step too many:

2) The plane and passengers were ditched in the Marianis Trench.

@BI: The hole theory, along with most of the other "theories", is covered in the Popular Mechanics article and book.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-pentagon#bigplane

The book is a fascinating read. Unless, of course, Popular Mechanics is in on it too.

@fartz: I can agree with you about the government not telling us "everything". I'm sure there's tons held back. We've never heard any of the cockpit voice recordings. As an info junkie, sure, I'd love to hear them. And I don't know why they'd be held back. Maybe you can hear Cheney give the final orders or something. Or maybe it would just serve no one to release them. I just don't know.

The only conspiracy there was between John and Yoko to assault our ears with that garbage.

Read the link in my first post . Or the excellent popular mechanics article. Or just make shit up. I no longer care.


Edit@Barry: according to fucking losers like Germy, the Pop Mech guys are "in on it" as well. One of the guys who worked there is the cousin of either a Bush or Chertoff or someone. You couldn't make this shit up....

Who did it and why?

No, sci fi doesn't explain it. Building 7 was hit by debris. Again, from those puppets over to Popular Mechanics, about halfway down the page:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/debunking-911-myths-world-trade-center#wtc7

When things collapse, it's usually pretty "sudden". Or at last seems that way. In truth, a collapse is the culmination of supports failing over a period of time. Either a short period of time, like a controlled demo, or over a period of time, like the Towers and building 7. Or the facade at the Pentagon.

Sorry, but Occam's Razor strikes again.

Hendrix had nothing to do with the Panthers. As rock stars of the day went, he was pretty apolitical. He was about dope and banging white girls. He also enjoyed only about a year or so of popularity in the States before his death. He was huge in England before he came here, and was of the mind to reside in England. As for how to "deal with" celeb malcontents, Hoover was more for discrediting them than killing them. He was afraid of creating martyrs.

No, Hendrix was a novice junkie who got a hotshot.

I've never heard before that Popular Mechanics was in on it, but it's no stretch to get there. Again, what's the motive? How much of the staff was involved, and why have none of them found Jesus and come forward?

Madoff and the other Jew hedge fund/ponzi schemers had it taken down, with help from MOSSAD, because it housed the SEC investigation office and some FBI offices. Got Bernie an extra 8 years of scheming. $50billion into thin air?? Nah, they using that $$ to help starve those poor as dirt Palestinians.

it was Madoff and Reverse Vampires...

And the Trilateralists. Don't forget them. And Popular Mechanics.

Come on. Trilateralists are fucking pikers. ITS THE JEWS!!!!! JEWS I TELL YA!!!

Jerkules Rules to Live By # 4: Don't trust anyone that doesn't eat pork.


That comes right after don't trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die, and before never look at a stripper in daylight.

The Jews run the whole thing. 3000 of them called in sick that day.

And it was Jews on bogus student visas whose was filming the whole thing from a buildings across the street.

Bacon has truth serum in it. That is why Jews, Muslims and crazy chicks shy away from it. They get it in there through genetically modified corn in the hogs feed. Fucking Monsanto is as trustworthy as the JEWS!!!!!!!!!!! The Board of Directors of Monsanto is all paid for by AIPAC through the New York Fed!!!! JEWS!!!!!!!!


JEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!


JEWS!!!!!!!!

JEWS!!!!!

Teehee. Good stuff.

You know every so often you hear some media snob go off about how the BBC is so much better at reporting news than American news networks, not on Sep. 11, 2001.

Notice the stupid twit anchorwoman that announces that there are unconfirmed reports of a second plane hitting the WTC about five minutes after they show the footage of the second plane crash. And even then she can't put 2 and 2 together. She never even thinks "You know, this just might be deliberate" even after the second plane. Finally the light bulb goes off in her co-anchors head about two minutes later. Even then she doesn't get it. Even after they show Bush announcing that these were terrorist attacks she continues to describe them as "apparent" terrorist attacks. Then when they show the Pentagon getting hit she says "it now looks like the focus of these attacks, if that's what they were, has switched to Washington. Can you possibly be any more clueless?

Most news people have 2 skills aside from their looks. They can read out loud and they can weasel the names of pricey restaurants into the broadcasts to get free meals.

I lol'ed ! hahahahaha

I just can't get into the engineering babble about the melting point of steel and all of that hooplah. But, the one thing that always bothered me was the whole fucking box-cutter thing. If someone tried to hold me up with a goddamn box-cutter, I'd just punch them in the fucking face. Were these extra-long-samurai-sword-style box-cutters?

Superficial cuts don't seem so bad to me when my life's at stake. Hardcore and ultraviolent wrestling yard-tards give themselves superficial cuts for a 100 bucks a night.

I try and stay out of political and patriotic discussion, so if there's more to this particular box-cutter assault then I know, please educate me. I'm not trying to start shit, but am seriously wondering how the fuck they pulled that off with box-cutters.

Well, I did hear that the hijackers plan was to slit the throat of one passenger, in order to keep the rest in line. Not sure if that happened or not. The other thing is, we have been programed to not be confrontational when put in a situation like that. Nobody knew what the plan was (ie flying them into buildings), so nobody on the plane had cause for concern. Similar to what happens if you are in a bank during a robbery. Just sit still, stay quiet, and when the towel heads have their money, then you will be free to go home.

I think they used tear gas before they started slashing the crew with the box cutters. If you can't see and you aren't expecting it, they could slash your throat pretty fast. That goes for the crew back with the passengers. However, I would have expected the cockpit crew members to at least put up a bit of a fight.

Thanks for clearing that up a little, gents.

Thinking back on that day, I was supposed to leave on a road trip that morning. I woke up when my dad starting banging on my front door shouting that we were at war. I spent the next few hours watching the live footage of what was happening. Then I got a call saying my 10am haircut appointment was cancelled because downtown Anchorage was being evacuated. Apparently some dumbass Chinese pilot tripped the "Hijack" alarm in his jetliner and they thought the plane was going to either crash into a building in Anchorage or maybe the Alaska pipeline in Valdez.

I ended up canceling my trip, which would have eventually taken me to New York to see some baseball games. The Mets were making a late-season charge and were basically unbeatable. It really looked like they were going to catch the Braves (fuck you Armando Benitez!). Thinking back, I kind of wish I had gone anyways. It would have been great to be there for Piazza's home run on the first game in NY after 9/11.

I did make it to New York the following spring and got to see the viewing area of the pit. It amazed me how many foreign tourists were standing there smiling for photographs in front of what was basically an open grave. I remember how this one group of asian tourists were joking and smiling until they saw me staring at them with what must have been the coldest face I've ever made. I think maybe they thought I was going to come over and kill them because their smiles immediately vanished.

I miss the Japanese photographer gags that used to pop-up in every 80's comedy movie.

There are box cutters, then there are box cutters.

http://www.uline.com/BL_1152/Economy-Cutter

http://www.uline.com/BL_1161/Snap-Blade-Knives

http://www.uline.com/BL_1170/Comfort-Grip-Knives

I think they also had regular pocket knives, which were OK to carry on planes at the time, IIRC. The economy one will go right through your jugular. Also, with backyard wrestlers, they're trying to get a little colour, so they're being careful. When you're really thrusting one around, if nothing else you can cause really blinding pain. Add to that that being cut up is a really freak out inducing experience.

IIRC, part of the takeover plan was to slit a passenger's throat. Easily done with a box cutter. I'd imagine that threw the rest into a major fear mode.

I think it's easy to Monday morning quarterback it, but until you're actually in the position, you just don't know how you'd react. For most of violence happens on tv. To actually have to physically defend yourself is just foreign to us.

The hijackers did not give the indication they were going on a suicide mission, just hijacking the plane. So people sat and did as they were told.
Secondly it's easy to freeze people up with a slight bit of intimidation; they're scared as fuck already (i think that's what Barry was getting at).

Thank you barry and Tatty. Everytime I talk about box-cutter mysteries to peeps IRL, they shrug and say they don't understand either. It makes sense, though. Like Mr. The Pirate said, it's hard to predict how you're going to act in a fight or flight situation until you're there yo' damn self.

That was what I was getting at. Another factor was the fact we've been indoctrinated (wrong term, I admit) to "not be a hero". Cashiers at 7/11 get fired for capping a robber, bank employees are trained to cooperate in robbery situations...same with flight crews. Everyone thought they'd land, get their demands out and be on their way. No one was expecting a suicide mission.

I think watching a passenger get shanked would freeze me up quite nicely. I'd be offering our new flight crew overlords coffee and peanuts.