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#460369 - 11/12/09 10:43 PM
Obamacare jacking old people
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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So, I'm watching the news the other night and they're talking about how the Obamacare folks have gotten serious about financial issues surrounding the bill. WTF? Excited, I gotta check this out. So, a couple of days later... I'm on the internet tonight reading about it.
Apparently, the main cost savings are an excise tax on cadillac health plans (which I kind of support), and jacking Medicare benefits away from old people. Obama bought off the AARP because the type of insurance plans that they make money off of will be where seniors go for replacements of their benefits that are being cut from Medicare. Here's a silly little video of a bunch of old fucks mutineering at a local AARP meeting, threatening to cancel their memberships: Click
The way the Obamacare people've gotten "serious" about financial issues, is all kinds of little tweaks and gotchas in the system. They lower payments to health care providers through the government health insurance plans, they tax prescription drug makers $20 billion here, they tax medical device manufacturers $38.6 billion there, oh, and there's some "second" excise tax on insurance companies also. A lot of stuff here and there like that.
And, in the end, you get a health care system that's supposed to save the federal government $16 billion over the next ten years.
The only thing is with all the tweaks and manipulations, the system they've set up only looks more and more complicated, with more and more points of failure where things can go the way you don't expect them. But, I guess that's why the bill was 1,200 pages to begin with. In an attempt to prove government's fine-tuned efficiency in specifically targetting what's wrong with markets.
Here's a good report on the finances of the latest incarnation of Obamacare if you're as sick as me wanna dig through it. It is only 3 pages long: Click
I really don't get the genius behind slashing the popular program, Medicare, and throwing cash into the hated program, Medicaid, they got going on. But, who said it had to make sense?
Really ticked that they didn't go with the simpler Healthy Americans Act that didn't have all these twists and gotchas.
Oh, and my favorite from that report. The big complaint that Bill Clinton's running around with about our medical system is we spend so much higher a percent of our comparatively larger GDP on health care and don't get better care than other nations. But, national health care expenditures don't even go down under this plan, they go up. From that report I linked to above:
Quote:
The increase in national health spending would be $114.2 billion over the 2010 through 2019 period and $527.4 billion over the 2020 through 2029 period.
They do have in there that if your family is already insured that your household should save a few hundred bucks a year. So, good for me! If the plan works...
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#460370 - 11/12/09 10:50 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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I've got mine Jack, hurray for me and fuck everyone else seems to be the GOP mantra and the mantra of those who oppose reform of the health care coverage system in the USA, The number of people who lack coverage in this country and the financial ruination facing them in the event that they become ill is a national disgrace. God bless President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Senator Reid.
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#460372 - 11/12/09 10:52 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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#460373 - 11/12/09 11:04 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
fuck everyone else seems to be the GOP mantra and the mantra of those who oppose reform of the health care coverage system in the USA,
ivor, WTF are you talking about? The Republicans have their version of health care reform. I talked to some people who went to various of those Tea Parties around the country. Even they support health care reform. I mentioned in that post I just made that I'd much rather have the Healthy Americans Act, which was written by a Democrat.
Nobody doesn't support health care reform any more. Well, nobody except people like Panzer who could give a fuck. This Obamacare thing just sucks ass.
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#460374 - 11/12/09 11:07 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Bukkake Boy
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 717
Loc: Off the mortal coil
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Quote:
Buy a house, dude.
Unless you're white. Then you're fucked.
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#460376 - 11/13/09 04:52 AM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Gag Factor Guru
Porn Jesus
Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 5290
Loc: Dayton
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OP: Quote:
The way the Obamacare people've gotten "serious" about financial issues, is all kinds of little tweaks and gotchas in the system. They lower payments to health care providers through the government health insurance plans, they tax prescription drug makers $20 billion here, they tax medical device manufacturers $38.6 billion there, oh, and there's some "second" excise tax on insurance companies also. A lot of stuff here and there like that.
And, in the end, you get a health care system that's supposed to save the federal government $16 billion over the next ten years.
The only thing is with all the tweaks and manipulations, the system they've set up only looks more and more complicated, with more and more points of failure where things can go the way you don't expect them.
Sounds exactly like what the insurance corporations have been doing to we the people to cause this crisis.
-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy
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#460377 - 11/13/09 12:44 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Sounds exactly like what the insurance corporations have been doing to we the people to cause this crisis.
Yeah, exactly. Now we got the government doing it too.
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#460378 - 11/13/09 02:13 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Buy a house, dude.
why? they will just forclose on it within 26 months.
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#460379 - 11/13/09 08:44 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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Quote:
The increase in national health spending would be $114.2 billion over the 2010 through 2019 period and $527.4 billion over the 2020 through 2029 period.
That cost estimate is complete lunacy. Exactly how much is going to cost to add millions of people to insurance rolls, public or private? Hint: we already know from current experience, $5k-$8k per year. How they estimate $114B for a *decade* is beyond me, unless they plan to only add 2%-3% of the uninsured. My estimate is that adding the uninsured will cost $300B-$400B per *year*, based on known costs.
Most of the problem is that there's very little cost savings: instead there are assumptions people will act against their own interests.
For example, part of this kills off private hospitals on the theory that they siphon off paying customers from public hospitals, resulting in fewer people for public hospitals to overcharge to make up for government mandates.
So far that's true - private hospitals cost about half as much for the same care, and nobody uses a public hospital if they pay the bills and can use a private hospital.
The assumption is that if private hospitals are killed then public hospitals (which are often for-profit) will cut their costs in half and everybody wins. ? I have never heard of prices going down when the competition is shut down, and the bills don't require that a penny of savings be passed on. The democrats assume it will; I assume it won't without force of law.
There's really no substantial savings to be had in the system at all without going to a Euro/Canadian system of rationing and eliminating middlemen (mainly for-profit insurance). Part of the problem with that is that none of the European countries or Canada do any appreciable medical research, except France, and some, especially Canada, get drugs substantially subsidized by much higher US prices. So France is really the only useful model.
My plan would be to eliminate middlemen, which would cost 30% of cost out, and bring drug prices into balance by charging very high taxes on companies that sold similar quantities of drugs in the US for more than other 1st-world countries. (I might exempt France since they do their fair share of medical R&D - they aren't freeloading in that regard). Then, once we prove we really do have a grip on costs, we start paying for uninsured.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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#460381 - 11/13/09 09:44 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Pervert
Registered: 08/05/05
Posts: 2116
Loc: Faber College
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What's the bottom line with the uninsured? For example if it was in effect right now would Melissa-Ashley be able to get her hysterectomy right away instead of asking for donations? Would Tina Tyler not have had to go to Canada for her shit?
_________________________
It was a wonderful community with some very enjoyable members. But the vast majority were like German housewives circa 1943 prenteding that horrib;le smell wafting through their open windowsd was just the neighbors having a cookout..--Windsock
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#460382 - 11/13/09 11:22 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
By all means eliminate the middle men and women, and use the savings to expand coverage. They are parasites who ought to get into a new line line of work, even if it means going to porn valley or walking the streets. 
outsourcing sucks.....but I never looked at in that way....so as for me I endorse NAFTA.... 
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#460385 - 11/14/09 06:12 AM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
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Quote:
I've got mine Jack, hurray for me and fuck everyone else seems to be the GOP mantra and the mantra of those who oppose reform of the health care coverage system in the USA, The number of people who lack coverage in this country and the financial ruination facing them in the event that they become ill is a national disgrace. God bless President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Senator Reid.
Actually, you're wrong about that one. Fuck You..I've got mine comes straight from the Congress, where both bills specifically EXEMPT the House, Senate & The King of Kenya from having to participate on the fraud they are perpetrating on the American Public. They get to keep their Rolls-Royce grade healthcare, everyone else gets squat, and the the working white folk get to pay for all of it.
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#460386 - 11/14/09 11:53 AM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Quote:
The increase in national health spending would be $114.2 billion over the 2010 through 2019 period and $527.4 billion over the 2020 through 2029 period.
That cost estimate is complete lunacy. Exactly how much is going to cost to add millions of people to insurance rolls, public or private? Hint: we already know from current experience, $5k-$8k per year. How they estimate $114B for a *decade* is beyond me, unless they plan to only add 2%-3% of the uninsured. My estimate is that adding the uninsured will cost $300B-$400B per *year*, based on known costs.
Yeah, all these numbers are suspect. That's a big part of why I was saying I was skeptical of this plan working. I've heard a lot on TV about how Harry Reid has been in constant "contact" with the Congressional Budget Office (CBO). I translate that as meaning he's learning how to massage the CBO economic models so he gets the financial scoring he wants. Which to me, goes against the whole entire spirit of these economic models. You can't sit there and manipulate the fuck out of them till it gives you the answers you want. They're not that reliable.
But, that report isn't saying the newly covered people will one increase national health expenditures $114.2 B. They have in there a comment that just the people who will newly get Medicaid will increase expenditures by $329.4 B. They're saying after all increases and savings, the expenditures will increase $114.2 B.
That 3 page report I linked to above doesn't spell it out directly like I've seen previous Lewin Group reports do for other plans, including previous carnations of Obamacare. But, looking at that report now, some of the savings come from reducing administrative work in insurance companies and slashing Medicare. The old will still be insured! They just won't be insured, as well. They also seem to be cutting into profits of health care providers producing some savings.
Quote:
For example, part of this kills off private hospitals on the theory that they siphon off paying customers from public hospitals, resulting in fewer people for public hospitals to overcharge to make up for government mandates.
I haven't seen anything on killing off private hospitals. I look for that next time I'm reading about it.
Quote:
There's really no substantial savings to be had in the system at all without going to a Euro/Canadian system of rationing and eliminating middlemen (mainly for-profit insurance).
I like Netherlands's system. They simply mandate that all insurance companies must except everyone and that everyone must have insurance, or face penalties. All insurance companies are private. And, individuals buy their own insurance, it's not done through employers, making health insurance portable so you're not forced to change providers all the time. That's what the HAA is based on. Netherlands's health care system has the highest customer satisfaction rate in all of Europe. I'm not aware of any rationing of care they implement. But, I'm no expert.
Quote:
My plan would be to eliminate middlemen, which would cost 30% of cost out
That's kind of what the Healthy Americans Act (HAA), does. Here's one of the more in-depth reports I was talking about above that covers the election campaign versions of Obamacare, McCain's plan, the HAA, and a Medicare-for-all plan: Click
Basically, there are reforms in the HAA, discussed in that report, that cut the administrative work done by health insurance companies in half. The report claims this would be a savings of $544.6B.
Two of the bigger insurance company administration reforms are 1.) moving the insurance industry from "experience rating" (looking at individuals to determine how much they will pay for health insurance) to "community rating" (looking at geographic regions to determine how much individuals will pay). And, to enforce mandates and figure tax breaks individuals will receive, the hated IRS collects health insurance premiums and passes them on to the insurance companies. By consolidating premium collections in with what the IRS already does, this eliminates costs incurred by insurance companies in collecting premiums.
Quote:
and bring drug prices into balance by charging very high taxes on companies that sold similar quantities of drugs in the US for more than other 1st-world countries.
During the election, both McCain and Obama supported importing drugs to get around the high prices charged in America. If that happened, drug companies would just slash their prices and we wouldn't have to import anything. I don't know what happened to that idea. The idea in Obamacare is basically what you say, a tax on brand name prescription drugs.
Quote:
What's the bottom line with the uninsured? For example if it was in effect right now would Melissa-Ashley be able to get her hysterectomy right away instead of asking for donations? Would Tina Tyler not have had to go to Canada for her shit?
That is the one good thing about Obamacare. The uninsured could get insurance, if they can afford it. But, several other plans do the same thing, without being convoluted. Convolution examples being slashing the loved program, Medicare, jacking up the hated program, Medicaid. Preserving the employer health care tax credit which favors the wealthy (although they are tweaking this by currently saying they want to tax the most expensive health insurance plans - it's just not an elimination of the problem, the wealthy are still favored. And, I've already heard quotes by Harry Reid where he wants to take that tax out.) Preserving experience rating which jacks up administrative costs in insurance companies. The stupid bill is 1,200 pages long. So, when there is a problem with a claim being paid, the average Joe will never be able to figure out what the real deal is (From memory, the HAA is only 164 pages). That's just off the top of my head. The bill is complex, so there's all these financial tweaks that the more I hear about them, the wrong people lose...
Quote:
Appreciable? What are you talking about? You mean you don't appreciate the research? Or the company, in which you are shareholder, doesn't appreciate it? Or ...?
He means "significant". The vast majority of drug research is done in the U.S.. But, it seems to me that's good for us. High-end jobs, here. Just so long as they wouldn't jack up the drug prices on Americans, like they currently do. No reason Americans should have to pay more for drugs just because the research is done here. Let them jack up prices in other countries and bring our costs down some so we're more in line with what other countries pay.
I promise I tried to keep this short guys, but this shit is complicated. It's fucking hard.
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#460387 - 11/14/09 11:55 AM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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For the people who kind of want to know what's going on, but have no desire to dig through that morass of a post I just made, here's a repeat of what I consider the most important paragraph in that last post:
That is the one good thing about Obamacare. The uninsured could get insurance, if they can afford it. But, several other plans do the same thing, without being convoluted. Convolution examples being slashing the loved program, Medicare, jacking up the hated program, Medicaid. Preserving the employer health care tax credit which favors the wealthy (although they are tweaking this by currently saying they want to tax the most expensive health insurance plans - it's just not an elimination of the problem, the wealthy are still favored. And, I've already heard quotes by Harry Reid where he wants to take that tax out.) Preserving experience rating which jacks up administrative costs in insurance companies. The stupid bill is 1,200 pages long. So, when there is a problem with a claim being paid, the average Joe will never be able to figure out what the real deal is (From memory, the HAA is only 164 pages). That's just off the top of my head. The bill is complex, so there's all these financial tweaks that the more I hear about them, the wrong people lose...
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#460389 - 11/14/09 12:09 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Human Garbage
Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 1541
Loc: Mississippi
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Ever notice how people always talk about how education and health care should be free, but nobody ever mentions the truly essential things like food and shelter?
I wonder why people who don't have a problem paying for food at the grocery store don't want to pay when they go to the Emergency Room for a runny nose.
_________________________
--Some of us look for The Way in opium and some in God, some of us in whiskey and some in love. It is all the same Way and it leads nowhither.
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#460390 - 11/14/09 12:25 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Tranny Whisperer
Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/02/03
Posts: 9221
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Quote:
Ever notice how people always talk about how education and health care should be free, but nobody ever mentions the truly essential things like food and shelter?
I wonder why people who don't have a problem paying for food at the grocery store don't want to pay when they go to the Emergency Room for a runny nose.
Because if you have free food and shelter then you would not want to go to school.
And government should promote the use of coupons, they could make public service announcements and campaigns like "The War on High Prices".
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#460392 - 11/14/09 12:33 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 9782
Loc: Hillbilly Holler
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Who the fuck is going to pay for it ?
_________________________
I may not know arse but I know what I like !
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#460394 - 11/14/09 12:38 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Tranny Whisperer
Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/02/03
Posts: 9221
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Quote:
Who the fuck is going to pay for it ?
The rich people.
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#460395 - 11/14/09 12:41 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Tranny Whisperer
Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/02/03
Posts: 9221
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Quote:
Quote:
...if [Panzer had] free food and shelter then [he] would not want to go to school.
Really, why wouldn't you want to go to school if you had free food and shelter?
I would but negros would'nt.
I decided a couple days ago since I don't work and rent and food is free, then since february I will study full time and take like 18 credits of coursework.
Niggas on the other hand would smoke weed, shoot dope and listen to the beat of hip-hop and rap.
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#460397 - 11/14/09 12:51 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Tranny Whisperer
Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/02/03
Posts: 9221
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Quote:
Quote:
I decided a couple days ago since I don't work and rent and food is free, then since february I will study full time and take like 18 credits of coursework.
Against my better judgment, I'm gonna ask... So what do you plan on studying?
Boredom is such a cruel mistress.
The same thing I study now: International Trade & Marketing
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#460398 - 11/14/09 03:54 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 5186
Loc: Joshua Tree National Park
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You don't need a degree in International Trade to buy and sell cuff links on E-Bay.
_________________________
I would eat Allie Sin's asshole until I got an emotion out of her.-Jerkules
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#460405 - 11/14/09 06:47 PM
Re: Obamacare jacking old people
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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Quote:
What do you mean by 'rationing of care'?
Rationing is usually done by "slotting", budgeting services offered.
There will be an estimate of the number of MRIs needed that year. They'll then buy enough MRI machines to do that many. People will be assigned "slots" or appointments when they need an MRI. If more people need them than were budgeted then the slot you get is further into the future, weeks or months, or longer.
This is done even with critical ICU services too, but it isn't set in stone at the start of the year. If cardiac ICU fills up they usually take budget away from MRI etc and add to things that's afford a waiting list and rebalance at the end of the year.
What is NOT allowed is to go over the overall allowed budget without going back to the government for permission. If the waiting needs to be shortened in some areas then it will be lengthened elsewhere, or "optional" things like sex-change and penis enlargement put off for next year entirely.
An example of rationing: an exchange student from Sweden lived with us for a year, and during that time his sister broke her wrist. She got free surgery to repair it ... scheduled over a year in the future.
It hurt, and she couldn't lift even 5 lbs, but they were short money elsewhere and her hand wasn't going to fall off so she was put on a long waiting list. Had they though there was a risky of permanent injury the wait would have been only a couple of months, permanent disability a couple of weeks, etc. She ended up coming to the US to have the surgery done and visit her brother.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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