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OK, I'll take the bait. Some good things here, some misconceptions.

First, yes, I've studied the entire Bible. I tried twice to become a Methodist. Bug, your statement about "grace without works is dead" may be a misquote of the Book of James' famous "Faith without works, is dead". The Book of James was and still is a bit controversial, and barely made it in the Bible, IIRC.

I couldn't become a true Christian because I do not believe in some of the basic precepts of the religion - that Jesus was Christ born of a virgin, and that his death is the only path to salvation. That Paul's letters are the Word of God. I just do not have the faith that these things are true. But, I met many wonderful, spiritual, honest people in my times with the Methodists, and I have occasion to work closely with some fairly observant Catholics who are basically good people, too. In both cases, religion strengthens them, gives their life much more meaning, helps give a moral compass, and provides a place to do good works and socialize. More power to them.

I've also met some very spiritual atheists. If this one go 'round is all you get, better make the most of it. Live well, and your legacy is how people remember you. People who don't normally do wrong, because it is wrong, not because of some fear of eternal damnation. People like Patty. More power to them, too.

I am a Deist, basically. Not that I've studied the thoughts of other Deists, that's not what it's about. I believe in an initial Creator, and I know God has been with me at various times in my life. But I also believe He made things the way they are, and divine intervention is very rare, miracles don't happen every day. While I reject the dogma associated with organized religion, I respect and value the spiritual principles put forth in beautiful things like the Sermon on the Mount, or the Psalms.

The Methodists and Catholics I have mentioned, that I have respect for, are the good side of Christianity, and religion. The dark side that is giving the whole religion a bad name, is the Phelps clan in Kansas, Pat Robertson, George W. Bush, you're going to hell type of person who is not really following the teachings of Christ at all. At least, not the way I studied His teachings for many years. I never could understand these people. And I never did believe in a punishing God. And, Catholics who are single issue abortion nuts, people who knock on doors selling religion, political Christians who try to push their religion through legislation all give the religion a bad name.

So, does Christ save? Or, is it the inherent spiritual thirst of the individual that allows them to take the beauty and spirituality of the teachings, and downplay the little verses that have been perverted to use as excuses for hatred? I would say the latter. And, what are the teachings of Christianity? That pornography, and masturbation, and prostitution, are wrong? I don't see these things as great sins when I read scripture. No doubt, verses can be pointed out about loose sexual conduct, but you have to search and interpret. In my case, these indulgences are much better than lying and deceiving someone to obtain sex. And, there are much larger moral issues for me to look at, personally.

Xbit sees the bigger picture, she has that inherent beautiful spiritual thirst. The understanding that good begets good, the love of giving to others, the feeling of wholesomeness to honestly feel good about herself. Despite the guilt of her Catholic upbringing regarding petty sexual dalliances. And, Patty has that spirituality, too, although he may resent me calling it that.

So, people are people, spirituality is from within, and there are good and bad in Christianity, and in the local supermarket, and in my workplace. But, thinking any religion is a set of rules to follow, in order to receive Divine blessing in an afterlife, is exactly what Jesus fought against! He took on the conservative Jewish clergy who were making all these rules, and tried to get people to drill down to the basic spiritual principles - love God, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. Crucifixion was the ultimate expression of that love for others.

Many of the Methodists I studied with would agree with what I've written here, except for the part about virgin birth, one path to salvation, and the Bible being the word of God. Many also agree about the Bible, and make in depth scholastic studies from a historical viewpoint, seeing letters as letters intended for the target audience, and seeing the Old Testament as history and something superseded by the teachings of Jesus. I really enjoyed studying with them, and I enjoyed my retreats at the Abby of Gethsemane with the monks, too.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Ignore the nuts, take what you believe in your heart to be true, and seek and nurture those beliefs. And, buy Gag Factor 30, it has truth and beauty, too.

-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy



"faith without works is dead" is the line I misquoted. I understand the idea of christianity giving people a sense of moral compass, self worth spirituality ect ect. What it ultimately comes down to is it's simple teaching that christ is the only way to salvation. You talk about big sins and small sins but really, sin is sin according to the bible, (I believe there was only one "unpardonable sin" which if memory serves correctly I believed referred to one of 'gods elect' denying the words of christ from flowing through him/her during a certain event in revelations) talked about in the bible. But it basically would make it cut and dry that any sin committed in your entire life would be enough to condemn you if you don't except christ. From what I've studied the bible is also pretty clear that once you are "saved" you are pretty much supposed to dedicate your life to christianity. (%99 who call them selves christians don't do this.)

The guy earlier telling me I was full of shit because I hadn't read the entire bible so I can't comment on it one way or the other basically proved the point I was trying to make earlier. really, what "christians" have read the whole bible? Why don't you go so far to say I haven't translated the Hebrew manuscripts or learned to speak Aramaic. If I don't know enough to be allowed to comment on the subject, you might as well say christians don't have a right to call them selves christians unless they've read the entire bible and earned a theological degree.

I get what you're saying fiend but I feel like it soft pedals it's ultimate message. I'm not offended if people who consider them selves christians get something out of it, more power to them. So much as the message of the bible it's self is what's offensive (and any other 'all or nothing' religion, that declares it's self the only true religion or you will go to hell. For those who would say I'm only picking on christians and not muslims or jews).
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Leave your mind open, receptive to the demons message.