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The guy's spent 2 years in prison and has had to declare bankruptcy. He's paid his debt to society. I think less of the people not willing to give him a 2nd chance than I do him. Well, that part of them anyway.

What are you guys gonna do with anyone who's spent time in prison? Just put a scarlet letter on them and never let them attempt to climb back to where they were? When you put them out on the street, you may as well tell them to just go ahead and assume a life of crime from here on out. We'll just put up with having our shit stolen.

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Absolutely not. He should not be allowed to reap the benefits a NFL career provides after what he did. Inexcusable.

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Tatty he doesn't have a "right" to an NFL roster spot.

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Absolutely not. He should not be allowed to reap the benefits a NFL career provides after what he did. Inexcusable.

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So should felons be denied jobs after serving their time etc? Should Tyson have been banned from boxing after his sentence? Is rape not as bad as dog fighting? What about Ali? A lot of Americans thought he was a treasonous motherfucker even after he served his time. And I, for one, am glad Bernard Hopkins got out and started fucking dudes up after doing his bid.

The only way he is gonna get work is if a team sees something incredible in him so I wouldn't worry.

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Someone who tortures and kills innocent animals for fun and profit should not be allowed to ........

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So your cool with felons handling the food given to children but you don't want him to play football? That doesn't make any sense does it?

He did his time, he paid his fines and suffered the consequences determined to be worthy by a court of law. Any organization that wants to hire him is within their rights and should do so. There will be social consequences like the nutjob PETA protests, but if they are willing to take the good with the bad... so be it.

Nobody has a "right" to play football. They all earn the opportunity to play based upon their athletic ability. So he has earned it. Now it's just up to the teams if they want him. Precedent has already been set for felons to play in the league if they have rehabilitated and shown remorse. The people with access to that information will make the determination.

My reason for not wanting the guy on my team has nothing to do with the felony. I just don't think he would help my team win a Superbowl. In addition I don't think the negative press that would come with signing him is worth it. Why have your backup QB be a pain in the ass?

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By my standards your are a bad person. But that's because you are a damn commie Euro. Not because you ate a steak sandwich with dead baby cow meat.

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Someone who tortures and kills innocent animals for fun and profit should not be allowed to ........

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Do you eat meat? Meat comes from dead animals and I'm not talking about animals that die of old age or other natural causes. But I guess you knew that already.

I killed animals, kill animals and will kill animals in the future. All these animals are, what you would call, innocent. (I don't think animals are innocent or guilty of anything, but that's another thing.) I enjoy my work, even though it's called torture by some people.

Does that make me a bad person, according to your standards?

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No I dont eat meat.Because I know exactly where it comes from and how it gets there.

I do not in any way agree with factory farming. So if thats what you do and you enjoy it,...yeah...you arent the best person to me and I prob wouldnt be friends with you.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine is that it isnt ok to torture and kill for pleasure,sport,vanity,greed or profit.

Unless its humans being killed..in which case they prob deserve it.

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Mine is that it isnt ok to torture and kill for pleasure,sport,vanity,greed or profit.

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Unless its humans being killed..in which case they prob deserve it.

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It's called 'a job'. You enjoy yours, I enjoy mine. It doesn't have anything to do with pleasure, sport, etc.

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Unless its humans being killed..in which case they prob deserve it.

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On request, me and my colleagues can offer a wide range of services in this field. Special service, special price, of course.

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I'm not torturing animals, I merely kill them. I do them a favour by ending the life-long misery they had to endure at some mass-producing factory-farm.

So, basically, I'm a great animal friend!

And looking at my wages, I can hardly call it 'profit', by the way.

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Do you kill them humanely?

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Very humanely. They don't feel a thing, when I'm done.

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I would live on the streets before I'd take a job at a slaughterhouse. Thats just me.

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If he had done all this to children instead of dogs...would your feelings be different?

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I strongly believe that a society in which dumb jocks AKA professional athletes serve as role models to millions of children is so fucked up that dog fights are the least of its worries

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Especially since a vast majority of said athletes come from homes with no fathers, momma's who have multiple baby daddy's and where crack is the solution to the majority of the problems, whether selling or smoking is the solution.

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Do you kill them humanely?

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Very humanely. They don't feel a thing, when I'm done.

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Funny.

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I would live on the streets before I'd take a job at a slaughterhouse. Thats just me.

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You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Did you ever live on the streets? Have you ever worked at a slaughterhouse? Try either one, and report back.

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I dont have to do either to know what I would choose.There are other options. I'm sure theres something out there you would never do under any circumstances.

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If he had done all this to children instead of dogs...would your feelings be different?

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Yes, very different. Children are human beings, animals are not.
It's not exactly a secret on here that I hold a human life in much higher respect than whatever animal you can think of. I do not hate animals, I'm indifferent to them.

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I'm indifferent to most people. Animals and children IMO are the only innocents. They dont do anything to deserve cruelty or abuse.Nothing will ever change my mind that cruelty to animals..ESPECIALLY to the disgusting level that Vick did...is EVER ok or justifiable. Thats not something I consider forgivable.

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By my standards your are a bad person. But that's because you are a damn commie Euro. Not because you ate a steak sandwich with dead baby cow meat.

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You're still the low-quality poster you used to be. Good to see some things never change.

I'm not a commie Euro. I'm not sure what you mean by it, but I'm sure the definition you cooked up in your numbed brain, is something I won't agree on.

And where did I say I ate 'a steak sandwich'?

I'm a bad person by blehhh's standards. It would've hurt if it would've been different.

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Vick tortured and killed animals for fun and profit over and over again, he didn't jaywalk.

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I'm sure theres something out there you would never do under any circumstances.

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They (animals and children) dont do anything to deserve cruelty or abuse.

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Cameron, it's really fucked up you don't believe more in 2nd chances. A lot is talked about on this board about the stigma girls have to live with when they try to get out of porn and the trouble they have landing a better job because of it (amongst other issues they have in moving on). And, the thing is, you're a porn whore. There's gonna be a day you need to ask for a 2nd chance.

Yes, you can argue you never hurt nobody, not even animals, and there shouldn't be that stigma anyway. Vick can argue he grew up in a culture where dog fighting was the status quo. He was just doing what everyone in his neighborhood had already accepted. The extenuating circumstances could be argued till no one has to agree on anything.

But, for someone who has obviously paid the price for his sins like Vick has, it shocks me you don't believe more in 2nd chances. Especially considering there's gonna come a day when you need to ask for the same.

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I'm sure theres something out there you would never do under any circumstances.

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This is a good question. I don't have an answer to it. Yet. My initial reaction is that there is nothing that I will categorically refuse to do, but that is without giving it much thought.

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And I would expect nothing more for myself if I were to commit a crime that was as heartless and cruel as this.

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And I would expect nothing more for myself if I were to commit a crime that was as heartless and cruel as this.

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You consider it heartless and cruel. It's your opinion, by your standards. You deny some fuck a 2nd chance, because you find it cruel/heartless.

It could be that someone else (or even the majority of the people) has a different set of standards/opinion on this.

And I agree with northrop. Someday, you, just like everyone else, will need his/her second chance. I know I got mine.

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I'm sure theres something out there you would never do under any circumstances.

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This is a good question. I don't have an answer to it. Yet. My initial reaction is that there is nothing that I will categorically refuse to do, but that is without giving it much thought.

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OK...would you rather be homeless or shot in the face(and live)? Is this a situation where you'd have to experience either to know which you'd choose?

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The original comparison was 'homeless' vs. 'working in a slaughterhouse'; now we're talking about 'homeless' vs. 'shot in the face'. That's two very different things. You're vandalizing the argument a little in this way.

Again, I haven't giving all this too much thought, as it's not really a decision I need to make.

And I can see myself choosing to be shot in the face and die. But that's beside the point.

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I think anyone with a heart would find this cruel.I worry for those who dont...If this had been children instead of dogs would you still think he deserved a second chance? Cruelty and heartless actions are the same,even if the species they are carried out on is not.

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"I think"? You mean: "I assume".

Children instead of dogs? Yes, still a second chance. It's a matter of principle for me. What went before is irrelevant to me.

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I'm sure theres something out there you would never do under any circumstances.

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This is a good question. I don't have an answer to it. Yet. My initial reaction is that there is nothing that I will categorically refuse to do, but that is without giving it much thought.

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OK...would you rather be homeless or shot in the face(and live)? Is this a situation where you'd have to experience either to know which you'd choose?

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The original comparison was 'homeless' vs. 'working in a slaughterhouse'; now we're talking about 'homeless' vs. 'shot in the face'. That's two very different things. You're vandalizing the argument a little in this way.

Again, I haven't giving all this too much thought, as it's not really a decision I need to make.

And I can see myself choosing to be shot in the face and die. But that's beside the point.

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I think anyone with a heart would find this cruel.I worry for those who dont...If this had been children instead of dogs would you still think he deserved a second chance? Cruelty and heartless actions are the same,even if the species they are carried out on is not.

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"I think"? You mean: "I assume".

Children instead of dogs? Yes, still a second chance. It's a matter of principle for me. What went before is irrelevant to me.

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Vick tortured and killed animals for fun and profit over and over again, he didn't jaywalk.

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And, E.Y. Davis, Michael Vick is exactly who I want as a 2nd chance poster child. Jay walking, WTF are you talking about? If you spent 2 years in prison there's a damn good chance you did something hideous with your life.

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Vick tortured and killed animals for fun and profit over and over again, he didn't jaywalk.

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And, E.Y. Davis, Michael Vick is exactly who I want as a 2nd chance poster child. Jay walking, WTF are you talking about? If you spent 2 years in prison there's a damn good chance you did something hideous with your life.

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There are people spending 20 years in prison for being caught with Marijuanna. 2 years in jail (not prison) is something handed down for things like cheating on your taxes. He got off light.

He had a second chance to do the right thing after the first time he saw a dog fight, he had a third chance after the second time he saw a dogfight, he had a fourth chance after the third time he saw a dogfight, etc, etc. etc, etc...

His LIFESTYLE of breeding and fighting dogs was not a one time slip up or a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was a way of life and a mindset.

He wanted to show everybody what a big bad thug he was, let him live the life for real. That should be his sentence.

I would have been happy to give him a second chance if they caught him after the first offense.

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By my standards your are a bad person. But that's because you are a damn commie Euro. Not because you ate a steak sandwich with dead baby cow meat.


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You're still the low-quality poster you used to be. Good to see some things never change.

I'm not a commie Euro. I'm not sure what you mean by it, but I'm sure the definition you cooked up in your numbed brain, is something I won't agree on.

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I've heard pc liberals say he's not really to blame. You see dog fighting is part of black/ghetto culture and black/ghetto culture is only disfuntional because of 400 years of oppression. It's whitey's fault!

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He needs to be lynched like that picture that was posted the other day. Fuck him.

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He had a second chance to do the right thing after the first time he saw a dog fight, he had a third chance after the second time he saw a dogfight, he had a fourth chance after the third time he saw a dogfight, etc, etc. etc, etc...

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He had a second chance to do the right thing after the first time he saw a dog fight, he had a third chance after the second time he saw a dogfight, he had a fourth chance after the third time he saw a dogfight, etc, etc. etc, etc...

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Yeah, it sounds like you somehow missed something on the way to the office yesterday.

What a 2nd chance means is that you fucked up, you did something horrible with your life. You've been through the ringer, paid prices nobody wants to pay and are now looking to walk the straight and narrow. Coke, not before you've paid the price, but after.

Maybe a more common example would give you an idea of what a 2nd chance is. It doesn't work like, that coke addict had a 1st chance the first time he shoved a straw up his nose. A 2nd chance the 2nd time... It's when he figures out he's a fucked up loser, gone through the wrenching process of rehab, has some time straight under his belt, and is now asking for a favor. That favor is the 2nd chance.

You keep mentioning crimes that any one on a porn board wouldn't care about, marijuana and the one with real evil intent, jay-walking. Helping someone out who's never done anything really wrong in the 1st place, that ain't a 2nd chance.

But, look. If you wanna stand like you're the judge and know what all can be forgiven and what can't, by all means, have yourself a ball holding onto the hate.

I've already said anything I know that would possibly change your mind. You kind of dragged me back in with your stupid definition of what a 2nd chance is.

If you don't believe in 2nd chances, except for limited instances where your personally judge okay, just say you don't believe in 2nd chances. 2nd chances are about forgiveness, not about you scrutinizing with your wealth of knowledge as to what all the answers are.

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He walks free after his 2 years, right? I agree he got off light, but the beef then becomes one of sentencing for this crime.

Our justice system said 2 years and he walks, end of story, gavel down. He can work any job he wants.




-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy

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...He can work any job he wants...

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It's not fair for the NFL to deny him employment because he is a felon. It does not equate to hiring a child molester on the sex offender registry to do work in schools.

It should be judged on talent, if he still has it, and someone wants him, he should be allowed to play.

-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy

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I think anyone with a heart would find this cruel.I worry for those who dont.

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bit late in responding to this, but:

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I think anyone with a heart would find this cruel.I worry for those who dont.

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The false universal conceals itself in the habit and or privilege of speaking as if the shape that one's values and preferences assume in concrete social, political or interpersonal contexts is not grounded in cultural, historical or even ideological perspectives but, instead, is reflective a transcendant "natural" order whose validity is obvious to everyone, save the stupid, the primitive, or the morally depraved. In a word, the false universal is a manifestation of history internalized, normalized, and then forgotten as history- at least for those on the inside looking out.

-Sherman A. Jackson,
"Islam(s) East and West: Pluralism between No-Frills and Designer Fundamentalism"

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No I dont eat meat.Because I know exactly where it comes from and how it gets there.

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Sounds like you're suffering from a dietary deficiency.

Slaughterhouses usually kill the "humanely", i.e., quickly with little pain, because that's more efficient and better for business. Whenever I find a deer carcass at my weekend cabin that the wolves killed I guarantee you nature's way wasn't as easy on that animal.

As for Vick, once he's done his time and paid his debt I don't think he should be barred from the NFL: he ought to have the same opportunity as every other felon with a recent dog-fighting conviction, which is about zero. There is a certain amount of P.R. and image associated with the league, and while they may tolerate Ray Lewis killing a human being, killing a dog goes too far.

I probably wouldn't mind if he played in Canada or Europe for a year or two and then tried out for NFL teams. That would be enough time to see if he's changed or not. But at his age I don't see him winning a job, even ignoring the dog-fighting. The league is still moving very much in the "possession" quarterback direction, where it's more important for a QB to *not lose* a game than it is to have a QB who can win it. That's not his style.

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I do not want him in a position where he is admired by young people.

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Then you had better start writing letters to every company shoving this bullshit gangsta rap onto the market.

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I think you're going to have to do a better job of defending the notion that something isn't "natural" because you can find somebody somewhere that doesn't share the same trait. Are you claiming that nothing can be natural unless no person can be found that does not have this condition? You don't believe in any natural conditions of humanity? Does that also mean that no act is unnatural, unethical, or immoral only illegal or legal?

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Furthermore, it is no logical argument against the notion of universal ethical constants to point out that some groups of people disagree with you and behave unethically as that is exactly the reason why we should pursue them.

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OJ is banned? That's not right.

Pete violated the integrity of the game. That's a rule that is posted on every clubhouse door. Has to do with the 1919 Chicago "Black Sox" scandal.

Ron LeFlore was recruited out of prison to play for the Tigers. Still the only player to lead both leagues in stolen bases.

-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy

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if there are these "natural" human values that are simply intrinsically present in all people, then there should be no need for us to work towards a goal of spreading them to other cultures. they should already be present.

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He needs to be lynched like that picture that was posted the other day. Fuck him.

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if there are these "natural" human values that are simply intrinsically present in all people, then there should be no need for us to work towards a goal of spreading them to other cultures. they should already be present.

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I'm not sure if what I put in bold above is what you state as your personal opinion or as a representation of widely held beliefs in the Western world.

Either way, it's completely fucked up. The notion that the 'Enlightened Values' of the West are the best around and should be implemented everywhere (if necessary by force), is so very fucking stupid and arrogant, it can hardly be described in words.

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Throwing a football well (even really really well) may sell seats, but being an evil, antisocial fucker that tortures animals for fun and profit stops people from buying seats, stops advertisers from associating with your product and costs the franchise more money in the long run.

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