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#425706 - 05/20/09 04:52 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
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I can agree on disagreeing. Good night!
_________________________
The only thing you got that I want, is your suffering.
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#425707 - 05/20/09 05:12 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your team
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Human Garbage
Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 1541
Loc: Mississippi
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Quote:
Quote:
Vick tortured and killed animals for fun and profit over and over again, he didn't jaywalk.
And, E.Y. Davis, Michael Vick is exactly who I want as a 2nd chance poster child. Jay walking, WTF are you talking about? If you spent 2 years in prison there's a damn good chance you did something hideous with your life.
There are people spending 20 years in prison for being caught with Marijuanna. 2 years in jail (not prison) is something handed down for things like cheating on your taxes. He got off light.
He had a second chance to do the right thing after the first time he saw a dog fight, he had a third chance after the second time he saw a dogfight, he had a fourth chance after the third time he saw a dogfight, etc, etc. etc, etc...
His LIFESTYLE of breeding and fighting dogs was not a one time slip up or a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was a way of life and a mindset.
He wanted to show everybody what a big bad thug he was, let him live the life for real. That should be his sentence.
I would have been happy to give him a second chance if they caught him after the first offense.
_________________________
--Some of us look for The Way in opium and some in God, some of us in whiskey and some in love. It is all the same Way and it leads nowhither.
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#425708 - 05/20/09 06:42 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your team
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 7599
Loc: a site known for its tolerance...
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WOW! This thread really picked up some steam! Lotsa different arguments. I like....
_________________________
"I'll never forget the moment during the lovely Alyssa Allure's scene in 'American Bukkake' where the fellow got out of his wheel chair to ejaculate on her face. It was grotesque but had a certain frisson." -Sock
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#425709 - 05/20/09 08:53 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your team
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 12/24/07
Posts: 997
Loc: FL
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Vick tortured and killed animals for fun and profit over and over again, he didn't jaywalk.
And, E.Y. Davis, Michael Vick is exactly who I want as a 2nd chance poster child. Jay walking, WTF are you talking about? If you spent 2 years in prison there's a damn good chance you did something hideous with your life.
There are people spending 20 years in prison for being caught with Marijuanna. 2 years in jail (not prison) is something handed down for things like cheating on your taxes. He got off light.
He had a second chance to do the right thing after the first time he saw a dog fight, he had a third chance after the second time he saw a dogfight, he had a fourth chance after the third time he saw a dogfight, etc, etc. etc, etc...
His LIFESTYLE of breeding and fighting dogs was not a one time slip up or a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was a way of life and a mindset.
He wanted to show everybody what a big bad thug he was, let him live the life for real. That should be his sentence.
I would have been happy to give him a second chance if they caught him after the first offense.
I agree!
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myspace.com/pornstarcameronkeys
twitter.com/cameronkeys
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#425712 - 05/21/09 01:38 AM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Sex Slave Trader
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 1326
Loc: Yosisterisawhore, CA
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Vick is a disgrace to professional sports, and the sooner he turns into an embarrasing footnote the better.
_________________________
If I wanted to hear a crazy cunt talk about her kids I would just go to a regular bar and talk to the single moms there instead. - Fiend
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#425713 - 05/21/09 07:03 AM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 4726
Loc: The City That Never Sleeps, Tr...
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#425715 - 05/21/09 10:19 AM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 7599
Loc: a site known for its tolerance...
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#425716 - 05/21/09 03:03 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your team
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
He had a second chance to do the right thing after the first time he saw a dog fight, he had a third chance after the second time he saw a dogfight, he had a fourth chance after the third time he saw a dogfight, etc, etc. etc, etc...
Yeah, it sounds like you somehow missed something on the way to the office yesterday.
What a 2nd chance means is that you fucked up, you did something horrible with your life. You've been through the ringer, paid prices nobody wants to pay and are now looking to walk the straight and narrow. Coke, not before you've paid the price, but after.
Maybe a more common example would give you an idea of what a 2nd chance is. It doesn't work like, that coke addict had a 1st chance the first time he shoved a straw up his nose. A 2nd chance the 2nd time... It's when he figures out he's a fucked up loser, gone through the wrenching process of rehab, has some time straight under his belt, and is now asking for a favor. That favor is the 2nd chance.
You keep mentioning crimes that any one on a porn board wouldn't care about, marijuana and the one with real evil intent, jay-walking. Helping someone out who's never done anything really wrong in the 1st place, that ain't a 2nd chance.
But, look. If you wanna stand like you're the judge and know what all can be forgiven and what can't, by all means, have yourself a ball holding onto the hate.
I've already said anything I know that would possibly change your mind. You kind of dragged me back in with your stupid definition of what a 2nd chance is.
If you don't believe in 2nd chances, except for limited instances where your personally judge okay, just say you don't believe in 2nd chances. 2nd chances are about forgiveness, not about you scrutinizing with your wealth of knowledge as to what all the answers are.
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#425717 - 05/21/09 06:10 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your team
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Human Garbage
Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 1541
Loc: Mississippi
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Quote:
Quote:
He had a second chance to do the right thing after the first time he saw a dog fight, he had a third chance after the second time he saw a dogfight, he had a fourth chance after the third time he saw a dogfight, etc, etc. etc, etc...
Yeah, it sounds like you somehow missed something on the way to the office yesterday.
What a 2nd chance means is that you fucked up, you did something horrible with your life. You've been through the ringer, paid prices nobody wants to pay and are now looking to walk the straight and narrow. Coke, not before you've paid the price, but after.
Maybe a more common example would give you an idea of what a 2nd chance is. It doesn't work like, that coke addict had a 1st chance the first time he shoved a straw up his nose. A 2nd chance the 2nd time... It's when he figures out he's a fucked up loser, gone through the wrenching process of rehab, has some time straight under his belt, and is now asking for a favor. That favor is the 2nd chance.
You keep mentioning crimes that any one on a porn board wouldn't care about, marijuana and the one with real evil intent, jay-walking. Helping someone out who's never done anything really wrong in the 1st place, that ain't a 2nd chance.
But, look. If you wanna stand like you're the judge and know what all can be forgiven and what can't, by all means, have yourself a ball holding onto the hate.
I've already said anything I know that would possibly change your mind. You kind of dragged me back in with your stupid definition of what a 2nd chance is.
If you don't believe in 2nd chances, except for limited instances where your personally judge okay, just say you don't believe in 2nd chances. 2nd chances are about forgiveness, not about you scrutinizing with your wealth of knowledge as to what all the answers are.
I have never read more self-righteous bullshit in my life.
You don't get to come to me and demand that I hand out forgiveness or second chances or anything else by your rules. How I treat people, who I give second chances to, who I choose to despise, and who I choose to forgive is determined only by me. That line of crap you just layed out may work very well picking up whores with very little intellegence, even less self esteem, and no sense of morality or ethics, but when you are talking to me you better try a different tactic.
If you really want me to go over your argument piece by piece, let me know. I have to take a break for dinner and go walk the dog right now.
_________________________
--Some of us look for The Way in opium and some in God, some of us in whiskey and some in love. It is all the same Way and it leads nowhither.
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#425720 - 05/21/09 07:50 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
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Quote:
...He can work any job he wants...
No, he can't. He can only work where someone is willing to employ him. That may or may not be in the NFL, but it's the Leagues call, not his, and they'll base it on their personal feelings but more importantly what they perceive the potential backlash to be for their brand.
Let's put it another way. A child molester is convicted and serves his sentence and is released. Part of his sentence is that he is now on the sex offenders registry. He was an excellent electrician prior to his incarceration. You own an electrical contracting company who does a lot of work in schools or in peoples homes. Do you hire this excellent electrician for what he can do for your company or do you stay clear because of the backlash that could harm your company if they found out you were employing a child-molester?
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#425721 - 05/21/09 08:41 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Human Garbage
Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 1541
Loc: Mississippi
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Not only can't he work any job he wants, he can't work any job who wants him. Many jobs have restrictions on prior convictions. Most of the employment contracts I have signed have "morality clauses". I can be fired not only for committing a crime, but for doing anything the local community (as interpreted by the Board of Directors and CEO) might find "inappropriate" even if it is completely LEGAL.
This is, of course, why I don't (and will never) post my real name or personal info on a porn forum.
Never mind all of that, everybody seems to be twisting around the original question to a very weird extreme.
The original question was would you WANT Michael Vick on your team? Not should an animal torturer be allowed to get a job and second chance after his sentence is over?
_________________________
--Some of us look for The Way in opium and some in God, some of us in whiskey and some in love. It is all the same Way and it leads nowhither.
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#425725 - 05/21/09 09:10 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Bukkake Boy
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 635
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pete rose was betting on baseball, which actually has something to do with playing baseball. if the debate was about whether michael vick should be allowed to return to a job breeding dogs, then bringing up pete rose might be relevant. and i'm not sure what you mean about oj simpson. he was retired when he allegedly committed his crime. and he's still in the hall of fame, so,  if you want to point out how he hasn't been in any movies since the trial, then i still don't agree with your position that that equals justice, but at least the example makes more sense.
edit- oops, charin beat me to it. oj still in the hall of fame
Edited by big moose (05/21/09 09:13 PM)
_________________________
They're all human beings, and though she may be a liar and a manipulator, it's probably because she doesn't know any other way to survive.
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#425726 - 05/21/09 09:14 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 7599
Loc: a site known for its tolerance...
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Was wondering when the ol' "but what if a child molester/rapist wanted to..." card was gonna get played. Dogfighting is terrible . But that behaviour, no matter how abhorrent, has little connection to his trade.
Should he be allowed to run a dog-breeding business? I'd like to think not.
And as i said before, Jamal Lewis (see link) was convicted of what many would consider a serious crime. He did his bid. When he got out, he was deemed fit to play and became a contribution to the company that employs him.Isn't that, ideally, what we want to happen to people when they get out of prison?
_________________________
"I'll never forget the moment during the lovely Alyssa Allure's scene in 'American Bukkake' where the fellow got out of his wheel chair to ejaculate on her face. It was grotesque but had a certain frisson." -Sock
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#425727 - 05/21/09 09:20 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 11/27/07
Posts: 4795
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No, he should be bagging my groceries. I think he deserves to lead a life like anyone else, but I do not want him in a position where he is admired by young people. The dude is a scumbag.
I realize you made good examples, but we gotta start somewhere.
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#425728 - 05/21/09 09:41 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Bukkake Boy
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 635
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bit late in responding to this, but:
Quote:
I think anyone with a heart would find this cruel.I worry for those who dont.
The false universal conceals itself in the habit and or privilege of speaking as if the shape that one's values and preferences assume in concrete social, political or interpersonal contexts is not grounded in cultural, historical or even ideological perspectives but, instead, is reflective of a transcendant "natural" order whose validity is obvious to everyone, save the stupid, the primitive, or the morally depraved. In a word, the false universal is a manifestation of history internalized, normalized, and then forgotten as history- at least for those on the inside looking out.
-Sherman A. Jackson,
"Islam(s) East and West: Pluralism between No-Frills and Designer Fundamentalism"
_________________________
They're all human beings, and though she may be a liar and a manipulator, it's probably because she doesn't know any other way to survive.
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#425729 - 05/21/09 10:09 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
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I wasn't comparing fighting dogs to molesting children- just using an illustration of how "baggage" can affect your franchise. If I were the NFL commissioner I'd kiss him goodbye. That's a direct response to the OP.
As to what Vick did and condoned- it's not for me. I know people who fight chickens. In all other respects they are good people but they do not see the roosters as anything other than base animals. I suspect that these people and people like Vick don't see the dogs any differently. I don't know how you can reform a person like that any more than you can reform an alcoholic or child molester. All you can do is keep them from repeating the behavior. (And that is not responsive to the OP).
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#425730 - 05/21/09 10:21 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Human Garbage
Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 1541
Loc: Mississippi
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Quote:
bit late in responding to this, but:
Quote:
I think anyone with a heart would find this cruel.I worry for those who dont.
The false universal conceals itself in the habit and or privilege of speaking as if the shape that one's values and preferences assume in concrete social, political or interpersonal contexts is not grounded in cultural, historical or even ideological perspectives but, instead, is reflective a transcendant "natural" order whose validity is obvious to everyone, save the stupid, the primitive, or the morally depraved. In a word, the false universal is a manifestation of history internalized, normalized, and then forgotten as history- at least for those on the inside looking out.
-Sherman A. Jackson,
"Islam(s) East and West: Pluralism between No-Frills and Designer Fundamentalism"
It is a greater sign of intelligence to be able to communicate complex ideas in simple terms than to state simple ideas in complex intellectual jargon; and much less likely to be misconstrued as narcissistic self-aggrandizement.
--E.Y. Davis
"XXX Porn Talk: Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your..."
Anywoo, so what? What practical lesson has been learned by realizing that we are not living in the 12th century under the rule of Genghis Khan? That quote isn't saying anything the average elementary school history teacher hasn't said (in more eloquent language I might add).
That does not, and should not, change a single thing. If anything, it strengthens the argument that Vick should be punished more harshly as he is unlucky enough to live in a time when animal torture and murder is beginning to gain traction as a morally reprehensible crime which should be punished harshly. The fact that other times and other cultures may once have looked more lightly upon his crime (and may do so once again), does not rescue him from his current place in time and space.
Furthermore, it is no logical argument against the notion of universal ethical constants to point out that some groups of people disagree with you and behave unethically as that is exactly the reason why we should pursue them. Telling me my views on the cultural time and place that I exist is influenced by "cultural, historical or even ideological perspectives" has all the insight of telling me I can see better with the lights on.
_________________________
--Some of us look for The Way in opium and some in God, some of us in whiskey and some in love. It is all the same Way and it leads nowhither.
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#425731 - 05/21/09 10:42 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Bukkake Boy
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 635
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i thought he did a fine job of explaining the concept to me, so i let him do it here as well. just being intellectually honest.
if you look at the bit of text i'm responding to, you'll see that i'm not making an argument about the particular michael vick case, just point out that ms. keys is engaging in the use of the "false universal" with her assertion that "anyone with a heart would find this cruel." it simply is not true. see mr. yo's post about people he knows who are otherwise "good people" but who nevertheless find nothing wrong with having two birds battle to the death for their personal fun and profit. it is very possible that michael vick grew up in a culture that did not put the same value on the lives of these dogs that you, i, or mr. yo would. it would not make him heartless or mentally deficient. it is what it is. this is our particular culture, and not a "natural" state of humanity, as she is insisting, any more than making dogs fight each other is. telling you that your set of values is influenced by cultural, historical and even ideological perspectives is supposed to illustrate that very point, that they are not "natural," they have been shaped and informed by our history and the culture we live in. but if you want to argue that we should pursue imposing these "natural" values on the entire world regardless of any of these concerns, then i guess you don't really care about such malarkey.
of course, none of this is to say that michael vick should not be punished. the law, as well, is what it is.
_________________________
They're all human beings, and though she may be a liar and a manipulator, it's probably because she doesn't know any other way to survive.
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#425732 - 05/21/09 11:44 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Human Garbage
Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 1541
Loc: Mississippi
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I suspect I could easily argue against your assertions, but only if I was to take some liberties with how Ms Keys defined her terms (e.g. "anyone" and "heart").
Without that support I will only say that if I throw a coin out the window onto the ground it is not equally possible that it landed facing up with "heads" or "tails". Just because we don't know which side landed up does not make either position possible. The coin did land. It is either "heads" or it is "tails". The possibility of either outcome only existed before it was thrown. After it was thrown and landed, only one existence is possible.
Vick's coin was thrown many years ago, and because you can't see which side landed up does not make all ethical conditions possible. He did not grow up around dogfighting. His father says that Vick knew it was wrong.
I think you're going to have to do a better job of defending the notion that something isn't "natural" because you can find somebody somewhere that doesn't share the same trait. Are you claiming that nothing can be natural unless no person can be found that does not have this condition? You don't believe in any natural conditions of humanity? Does that also mean that no act is unnatural, unethical, or immoral only illegal or legal?
_________________________
--Some of us look for The Way in opium and some in God, some of us in whiskey and some in love. It is all the same Way and it leads nowhither.
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#425733 - 05/22/09 12:18 AM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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Quote:
No I dont eat meat.Because I know exactly where it comes from and how it gets there.
Sounds like you're suffering from a dietary deficiency. 
Slaughterhouses usually kill the "humanely", i.e., quickly with little pain, because that's more efficient and better for business. Whenever I find a deer carcass at my weekend cabin that the wolves killed I guarantee you nature's way wasn't as easy on that animal.
As for Vick, once he's done his time and paid his debt I don't think he should be barred from the NFL: he ought to have the same opportunity as every other felon with a recent dog-fighting conviction, which is about zero. There is a certain amount of P.R. and image associated with the league, and while they may tolerate Ray Lewis killing a human being, killing a dog goes too far.
I probably wouldn't mind if he played in Canada or Europe for a year or two and then tried out for NFL teams. That would be enough time to see if he's changed or not. But at his age I don't see him winning a job, even ignoring the dog-fighting. The league is still moving very much in the "possession" quarterback direction, where it's more important for a QB to *not lose* a game than it is to have a QB who can win it. That's not his style.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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#425736 - 05/22/09 06:04 AM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 5186
Loc: Joshua Tree National Park
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There have been a lot worse playing in the NFL. Leonard Little ran over someone in his car while he was tanked and is still playing. Bam Morris did time for drug trafficking and found a team willing to give him another chance when he got out of prison. Look how many chances Pacman Jones and Lawrence Phillips were given. No one this side of Rae Carruth is on the NFL's permanent shit list. Vick isn't even the NFL's #1 problem child. If you think Vick is a p.r. nightmare for the league wait until the conclusion of the Donte Stallworth trial. Now whether teams think that Vick has anything left in the tank is another matter.
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I would eat Allie Sin's asshole until I got an emotion out of her.-Jerkules
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#425737 - 05/22/09 07:16 AM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Registered Sex Offender
Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 2401
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I think the gub'ment went after Micheal Vick because he is a black guy with $$. If they were against the fighting of animals, MLB wounldn't have any middle infielders. We all know that the only thing Latin players love as much as not hustling is cock fighting.
_________________________
"Guage once told me that there is nothing worse than eaten ass of a black dude thats been huffen drain cleaner the night befor." - delanoojos
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#425738 - 05/22/09 07:54 AM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Bukkake Boy
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 635
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Quote:
I think you're going to have to do a better job of defending the notion that something isn't "natural" because you can find somebody somewhere that doesn't share the same trait. Are you claiming that nothing can be natural unless no person can be found that does not have this condition? You don't believe in any natural conditions of humanity? Does that also mean that no act is unnatural, unethical, or immoral only illegal or legal?
if there are these "natural" human values that are simply intrinsically present in all people, then there should be no need for us to work towards a goal of spreading them to other cultures. they should already be present.
Quote:
Furthermore, it is no logical argument against the notion of universal ethical constants to point out that some groups of people disagree with you and behave unethically as that is exactly the reason why we should pursue them.
by suggesting that there is good reason for us to attempt to pursue these "universal ethical constants" (which, by the way, will be identical to our personal ethics) it is an admission that not everyone understands the world the same way. if it were true, there would be no need to pursue such a thing, as it would simply already exist, naturally.
saying that one way (our way) is "the natural way" is to disregard the fact that our way, like everyone elses, has been shaped by our personal culture, history, and ideology. history internalized, normalized, and then forgotten as history.
_________________________
They're all human beings, and though she may be a liar and a manipulator, it's probably because she doesn't know any other way to survive.
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#425741 - 05/22/09 02:59 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
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#425743 - 05/23/09 01:46 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
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Thanks for the additional explanation, BM.
_________________________
The only thing you got that I want, is your suffering.
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#425744 - 05/24/09 10:13 AM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 3724
Loc: Paddling my canoe in the wild
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Some of the above posters suggest that the NFL is a meritocracy, and that Vick's physical abilities should dictate whether he gets a job or not.
Ability is one factor, but it is only one amongst many. A QB is the face of a franchise and the lynchpin of its marketing efforts. Fans like winning teams, but advertisers want someone that they can associate their products with.
Throwing a football well (even really really well) may sell seats, but being an evil, antisocial fucker that tortures animals for fun and profit stops people from buying seats, stops advertisers from associating with your product and costs the franchise more money in the long run.
Many people think Jeff George had the best arm of his generation, but was such an asshole he got fired from half a dozen teams. He's been trying to find work as a third string QB for 6 years. Compared to Vick, Jeff Goerge is Tom Brady.
Is there a franchise that would hire someone universally disliked (hated even) because it might make the team better? Maybe, but even Al Davis fired Jeff George (twice).
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You're all still alive?
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#425745 - 05/24/09 01:55 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 5186
Loc: Joshua Tree National Park
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Many of those same people also thought that Jeff George had the smallest brain of his generation.
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I would eat Allie Sin's asshole until I got an emotion out of her.-Jerkules
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#425746 - 05/24/09 02:43 PM
Re: NFL fans- would you want Michael Vick on your
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Throwing a football well (even really really well) may sell seats, but being an evil, antisocial fucker that tortures animals for fun and profit stops people from buying seats, stops advertisers from associating with your product and costs the franchise more money in the long run.
Yeah, that's why I posted in here. Fear of public opinion vs. how poorly your team's already filling stadium seats is gonna determine whether or not Vick gets his 2nd chance at the NFL. Public opinion really matters, so it's worth arguing about.
But, if the NFL doesn't give Vick another Jersey, I'm gonna have to do something. I'll go start one of those online petitions where people have to click to say they believe in 2nd chances. That oughtta be plenty to start a back lash against the NFL for not giving a worthy man a 2nd chance!
And, no doubt that's why Vick is working with the Humane Society. It gives any franchise a story to support why they took him back. That, and from reading a couple of letters Vick sent to the judge, it already sounded like he started to realize the intensity of his fuck-up before he went in. 2 years of washing the mushed up scraps and saliva off Leavenworth inmates' dishes later...
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