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#402382 - 02/27/09 05:43 AM
RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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...or maybe I should say, WTF GOP?! I'm an elitist, tree-hugging, New England liberal, so maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see. But does it seem to anyone else that the GOP is in a tailspin, if not in the midst of an unmitigated meltdown? Granted, W's two abyssmal terms didn't do the party any favors, but I can't blame W for the bizarre pattern of behavior of his confreres. I mean, I've always contended that the Republicans were outta touch, but the shit they're pulling lately even amazes me! First putting the Wasilla hillbilly on the bottom of the ticket in 2008 in a tragically misguided attempt to woo disenchanted Hillary voters [ Because issues had nothing to do with their choice. They just wanted to vote for a woman, right? Jeeeeeezuz. ]. THEN, lowering the bar even further by picking Michael Steele as the new RNC chair [ "Look! We gotta black guy too!" ]. THEN, picking Bobby "Slumdog" Jindal to deliver the mother of all humbug responses to Obama's address to congress. Right now the GOP has no clear leader or agenda, other than obstruction. Until they can figure out a way to contribute to fixing the nation's current woes, I think they need to follow the example of the Dems under Reagan, and either get with the program or sit down and stfu. 
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402384 - 02/27/09 05:55 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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You are correct. You are seeing just what you want to see.
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#402386 - 02/27/09 06:37 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 7888
Loc: Carpathian Mountains
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It's funny after Bushs last win- the same could have been said about the dems. Politics is a funny creature in this day and age- it all comes down to personality nd what have you done for me lately. If obama fails to perform and the repubs don't put up another bum in four years- the results will likely favor them.
_________________________
"Some say I'm lazy and others say that is just me.
Some say I'm crazy, I guess I'll always be"
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#402388 - 02/27/09 07:00 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
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When watching virtually any election coverage on any national network the anchors will breathlessly be wondering aloud about the "fate" of the losing party. When Carter got into the White House the media was SURE that this was the end of the Repubs. When Reagan got in they were SURE that this was the death of the Dems and on and on. If Obama trips on his dick with this economic program the Repubs will be back by 2010 and the media will once again be shoveling dirt on the grave of the Dem party. Nothing and nobody is #1 forever.
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#402390 - 02/27/09 08:20 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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Jindal did badly. I don't know anything about Steele to know if he earned his post. Obama did so it's possible Steele did too.
Obama is writing the Republican platform for the next several elections via deficient spending and removing Bush's fiscal record as a talking point for the Democrats: Obama is already planning on a 2009 deficit 4x larger than any ever before, *before* dealing with the financial system problems. His 2009 budget deficit could easy top $2.5T, with only a third of that related to dealing with the recession.
Likewise he's created a severe tax-increase problem that will likely force back-tracking during his re-election bid. There isn't nearly enough money to pay for his programs unless tax rates are raised to 100%, right down to the $75k income bracket. Since that won't happen a lot of promises will have to be dropped.
The biggest advantage the Democrats have is that the Republicans haven't figured out how to muzzle their I'm-Stupid-And-Proud-Of-It part of the party. It took the Democrats a decade to get their idiot half to shut up long enough to win an election, and the Republicans may find theirs no quicker to muzzle.
The best news fro the Republicans is that Obama's win wasn't that big, especially when you look at the circumstances (the Bush factor, economic meltdown). Republicans can turn that around by merely recapturing Republican voters who crossed parties. Moreover, most of the job losses are already on Obama and it will get worse unless he does something.
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"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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#402392 - 02/27/09 08:41 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 9489
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Yeah, Carter had a bigger approval rating than Obama in his first month in office and look at how long his Administration lasted. It's too early to count out the GOP, check in after the 2010 elections. No matter what you think of them, we need a two party system or this really will become the United Socialist States Of America.
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"I only insult those who deserve it." - Alfred E. Neuman
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#402396 - 02/27/09 09:59 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Yeah, Carter had a bigger approval rating than Obama in his first month in office and look at how long his Administration lasted. It's too early to count out the GOP, check in after the 2010 elections. No matter what you think of them, we need a two party system or this really will become the United Socialist States Of America.
If the Dems Socialize EVERYTHING it will be only a matter of time before we get another "smaller gvnt" Rep. it is merly and ebb and flow.
But instead the USA lowest percent higest class having all the benifits...the octomom types will get their fair portion of new benifits.
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#402400 - 02/27/09 03:02 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Quote:
Jindal did badly. I don't know anything about Steele to know if he earned his post. Obama did so it's possible Steele did too.
Steele's a moderate who's always been highly critical of the party. He may turn out to be just what the party needed, but his choice was blatant tokenism. The only thing he has in common with Obama is a year-round tan.
Quote:
Obama is writing the Republican platform for the next several elections via deficient spending and removing Bush's fiscal record as a talking point for the Democrats: Obama is already planning on a 2009 deficit 4x larger than any ever before, *before* dealing with the financial system problems. His 2009 budget deficit could easy top $2.5T, with only a third of that related to dealing with the recession.
Likewise he's created a severe tax-increase problem that will likely force back-tracking during his re-election bid. There isn't nearly enough money to pay for his programs unless tax rates are raised to 100%, right down to the $75k income bracket. Since that won't happen a lot of promises will have to be dropped.
The biggest advantage the Democrats have is that the Republicans haven't figured out how to muzzle their I'm-Stupid-And-Proud-Of-It part of the party. It took the Democrats a decade to get their idiot half to shut up long enough to win an election, and the Republicans may find theirs no quicker to muzzle.
The best news fro the Republicans is that Obama's win wasn't that big, especially when you look at the circumstances (the Bush factor, economic meltdown). Republicans can turn that around by merely recapturing Republican voters who crossed parties. Moreover, most of the job losses are already on Obama and it will get worse unless he does something.
All that's true and a pefect example of why the GOP is foundering. Obama inherited a world of intractable shit, and it'll be a near impossibility for him to solve the economic and security problems to any considerable degree within his first term. So yes, there'll be every opportunity for the Republicans to exploit his failure and ressurect themselves. But it's precisely their preoccupation with solving this problem, rather than the problems of the country that's got them in a nose-dive. If they weren't so damn terrified of Obama succeeding, were willing to put politics on the back burner, and concede that the Bush program was a complete and utter failure, the voters would ultimately give them credit for it. But the tragic character flaws of each party are, respectively, that the Republicans always take the low road, and so will always look petty and small-minded, and that Dems consistently take the high road, leave themselves vulnerable to Republican attacks, and look weak. There are plenty of brilliant minds in the Republican party, but it's disheartening to think that the wingnuts that are setting their agenda lately would actually like to see the new president fail.
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. THEN, picking Bobby "Slumdog" Jindal to deliver the mother of all humbug responses to Obama's address to congress.
But remember folks...it's the right-wingers who are racist.
Everyone's a racist. I don't fault the right for that. But I do fault them for the boneheaded presumption that female voters will vote for a woman just because she's a woman... and that putting a few brown faces on television can erase the memory of decades of indifference to minority issues.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402402 - 02/27/09 03:13 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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So, it's only called affirmative action when liberals do it?
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#402406 - 02/27/09 06:32 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gag Factor Guru
Porn Jesus
Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 5290
Loc: Dayton
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Quote:
Quote:
So, it's only called affirmative action when liberals do it?
H2C, we all know what he is going to say
Its funny that the left would like some cooperation now but never remembers that when the right is in office.
After 9-11, the Dems lined up behind Bush, in fact, it pissed me off about some issues they caved on. I think the Repubs would do well to support the Obama administration in this financial crisis. There will be better days for America, and then is the time for the Repubs to have things together enough to balance things out a little. Right now, they are looking reqlly bad, and will look worse when things improve.
Me, I hope they continue on the current path, it will allow Obama and the Congress to swing left enough to do some things I would like to see.
-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy
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#402408 - 02/27/09 06:52 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 7888
Loc: Carpathian Mountains
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Quote:
Quote:
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So, it's only called affirmative action when liberals do it?
H2C, we all know what he is going to say
Its funny that the left would like some cooperation now but never remembers that when the right is in office.
After 9-11, the Dems lined up behind Bush, in fact, it pissed me off about some issues they caved on. I think the Repubs would do well to support the Obama administration in this financial crisis. There will be better days for America, and then is the time for the Repubs to have things together enough to balance things out a little. Right now, they are looking reqlly bad, and will look worse when things improve.
Me, I hope they continue on the current path, it will allow Obama and the Congress to swing left enough to do some things I would like to see.
-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy
What other choice did the dems have after 911? Personally if i was a politician, and of course a two faced bum by definition, i would complain about obamas plan, sign it anyway then later when it doesnt work i would say it was a mistake but i felt we needed to try anything. Kinda like the "cooperation" with regard to most of the dems and the iraq war.
_________________________
"Some say I'm lazy and others say that is just me.
Some say I'm crazy, I guess I'll always be"
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#402412 - 02/27/09 07:15 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Icon
Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 3440
Loc: Jaundice Town
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that crazy bachmann woman saying to Michael Steele "You be the man, You be the man." pretty much sums it up. joe the non plumber at the big conservative convo in DC. I just don't see a strong bench for the repubs really. Who is in the party that can lead them. Jindal was hilarious. GOP is not in a tailspin GOP is in a Failspin 
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#402418 - 02/27/09 08:46 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Quote:
Quote:
So, it's only called affirmative action when liberals do it?
H2C, we all know what he is going to say
Its funny that the left would like some cooperation now but never remembers that when the right is in office.
I never know what I'm going to say. Most of this shit I just make up as I go along. But for the record h2c, most affirmative action policies amount to little more than tokenism. Any race-based policy is inherently discriminatory, and wrong-headed in my opinion. If the ultimate goal of affirmative action is to "level the playing field", those polcies could just as well be based on social/economic need, and still address the disparity caused by discrimination [ since minorities still suffer from disproportionate levels of poverty, crime, and poor education ]. But whether you wanna characterize Mikey Steele's appointment as affirmative action or tokenism, it still amounts to nothing more than cynical, cosmetic bullshit, and it insults the intelligence of the American public [ and for the purposes of my argument, I'm gonna pretend that's not an oxymoron ].
And I only expect Republicans to cooperate to the extent that it's in the best interest of the country. Just as I'd expect Dems to cooperate with a Republican administration in a time of crisis. That doesn't preclude oversight, or criticism. It's the duty of the opposition to question the administration's policies, and healthy, vigiorous debate is a vital part of the process [ Obama has said as much ]. But there's a difference between opposition on sincere philosophical grounds, and obstruction for the sake of scoring political points.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402424 - 02/27/09 10:35 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 6557
Loc: 2004 - the glory days
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they probably hadn't heard about the 600B "down payment" for universal health care yet. keep printing that money, spending that tax revenue, increasing the federal budget and ballooning the deficit during this "economic disaster" mr president. hope and change? yes we can!
silver platter
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"You are the worst poster in xpt yet I can't stop talking about you" - smelly monkey
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#402426 - 02/27/09 11:01 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
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Fortunately, "they" (America) have heard about how the "economic disaster" was the culmination of Republican supply-side, trickle-down, borrow-and-spend, ginned-up Iraq invasion economics.
As long as Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin and Mitt Romney are the bleating edge of the "revamped" Republican party, I don't see much of a threat to the continued groundswell* of common sense.
*-In the elections of 2006 and 2008, the Repugs lost 14 Senate seats, 55 House seats and the White House.
_________________________
"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.
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#402430 - 02/28/09 04:47 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Registered Sex Offender
Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
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When Clinton took office in 1992, there were dire warnings of permanent GOP irrelevance, but in 1994 they took Congress away from the Democrats for the first time in decades. 2010 will not be a repeat of the GOP success in 1994 for two reasons. First, there is no strong GOP leader. Gingrich almost single-handedly revitalized the GOP and put it in a position to win in 1994. Steele, Jindal, et. al. aren't even close to being in Gingrich's league. Second, the GOP had a plan and a vision in 1994. Contract With America, anyone? Yeah, the Dems laughed about it until it kicked their asses out of Congress. Now, there is no GOP vision other than just bitching about Obama. If there is a vision, Jindal sure as hell didn't articulate it earlier this week.
_________________________
"Offer them what they secretly want and they of course immediately become panic-stricken."
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#402432 - 02/28/09 06:31 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gag Factor Guru
Porn Jesus
Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 5290
Loc: Dayton
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Quote:
[url=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nigger+rich]...
he's doing better than I could have ever imagined. it's only been a month and there is so much buyer’s remorse it's hilarious. thank you president obama, republicans appreciate the silver platter.
Stupidity and racism, two Republican hallmarks.
FAIL
-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy
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#402437 - 02/28/09 11:23 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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Quote:
I never know what I'm going to say. Most of this shit I just make up as I go along. But for the record h2c, most affirmative action policies amount to little more than tokenism. Any race-based policy is inherently discriminatory, and wrong-headed in my opinion. If the ultimate goal of affirmative action is to "level the playing field", those polcies could just as well be based on social/economic need, and still address the disparity caused by discrimination [ since minorities still suffer from disproportionate levels of poverty, crime, and poor education ]. But whether you wanna characterize Mikey Steele's appointment as affirmative action or tokenism, it still amounts to nothing more than cynical, cosmetic bullshit, and it insults the intelligence of the American public [ and for the purposes of my argument, I'm gonna pretend that's not an oxymoron ].
And I only expect Republicans to cooperate to the extent that it's in the best interest of the country. Just as I'd expect Dems to cooperate with a Republican administration in a time of crisis. That doesn't preclude oversight, or criticism. It's the duty of the opposition to question the administration's policies, and healthy, vigiorous debate is a vital part of the process [ Obama has said as much ]. But there's a difference between opposition on sincere philosophical grounds, and obstruction for the sake of scoring political points.
Since you’re the only liberal on earth to publicly admit this, it does little good. Moreover, I sense a doubting sneer in your tone that leads me to believe you’re simply telling me what you think I want to hear.
I am all for feeding the hungry and giving help to those who need it. America was founded on the idea that anyone is free to succeed in life, the flipside is that everyone is also free to fail, and I have no qualms allowing someone who doesn’t even try to fail utterly.
I have no objections to making available for everyone, the tools necessary for them to succeed on their own, what exactly those tools are is debatable, but to hand someone everything they need for life leaves no reason for a person to strive. The destination is not as important as the struggle to get there and it is the struggle that makes us better and richer human beings, for the experience.
The opposition for oppositions’ sake is not a republican idea but one used by both parties. Just as both sides like to use scare mongering, propaganda, and down right lies, to sway the voter. So who’s going to be the one who breaks with these hallowed American Political Traditions? Obama “says” he is, but the evidence thus far is scant. No, the only real solution is a real third party.
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#402439 - 02/28/09 12:23 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Holy shit h2c, I didn't think you had it in you. In the past 3 years that's the first time I can recall you saying anything of substance without making a reference to pedophilia, screams, or spurting blood. Bravo sir!
There is no way on earth this nation, or any other nation can guarantee equality of outcome, nor should we strive for that. As you pointed out, the degree of each person's success or failure is not only in large measure dependent on his or her own merits, but is also up to each person to define for his or herself. It isn't the function of the state to deliver prosperity and happiness to every citizen... merely to guarantee that the opportunity is equally available to all. The problem [ and the fact that conservatives forget all too easily ] is that the state has frequently worked to actively hinder the opportunities of many. So the question is, if our country has actively, through the use of discriminatory laws, prevented a person or group of persons from achieving that prosperity... how does the state then redress that? I'm not proposing a perfect answer. But conservatives get so caught up in their Horatio Alger fantasies of plucky entrepreneurship, that they frequently forget that, before you can pull yourself up by your own bootstraps... you need a pair of boots. And while I likewise agree that struggle and adversity can do much to instill character, I'd also add that character doesn't count for nearly as much when you haven't eaten in three days. But try the "all character" diet for a week and tell me how that works out for you.
As for 3rd parties, they have always failed, and most likely will always fail. There isn't any idea or policy 3rd parties advocate, that can't or hasn't been assimilated into the two major parties. There might be plenty of grassroots support for fringe parties in the primary season, but no one wants to throw away their vote during the general... and memories of Nader in 2000 should be enough to chill any high-minded liberals thinking of voting Green in the future. That's just political pragmatism. And before you fall back on political pragmatism as a defense for the GOP's recent behavior, I'll remind you that the reason the Right is wrong right now, is because they're playing politics during a time when they should be worrying more about doing their jobs than keeping their jobs.*
*due credit to Aaron Sorkin.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402441 - 02/28/09 12:46 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Pervert
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 2056
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Yea, conservatism is dead. That's why dailykos's traffic is on the lowest level in its history and Fox News is the third highest-rated prime-time cable network channel in America, while CNN and MSNBC are losing viewers at alarming rate. ROFL
Seriously, it's true that the state has hindered opportunities for many groups of individuals. Obama's labor secretary is openly proposing excluding white men from participating on infrastructure construction funded by the stimulus and Americans earning more then 250k are going to get taxed to oblivion. It also probably sucked being a negro in the 50's. But that's an argument for LESS state, not more.
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"If you keep making fun of me, I might just get pissed and not post on here anymore. Start taking me seriously. I'm a student now" Fatja
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#402445 - 02/28/09 01:18 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Pervert
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 2056
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You liberals just can't live without your beloved straw men, can you?
_________________________
"If you keep making fun of me, I might just get pissed and not post on here anymore. Start taking me seriously. I'm a student now" Fatja
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#402446 - 02/28/09 03:22 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Registered Sex Offender
Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
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Quote:
It also probably sucked being a negro in the 50's. But that's an argument for LESS state, not more.
From an economic standpoint, it sucks to be a negro now far more than it did in the 50s. There were far more blacks in the middle class then than there are now.
_________________________
"Offer them what they secretly want and they of course immediately become panic-stricken."
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#402448 - 02/28/09 05:48 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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Quote:
Holy shit h2c, I didn't think you had it in you. In the past 3 years that's the first time I can recall you saying anything of substance without making a reference to pedophilia, screams, or spurting blood. Bravo sir!
That’s what you say every time. It wasn’t funny last time either.
Quote:
So the question is, if our country has actively, through the use of discriminatory laws, prevented a person or group of persons from achieving that prosperity... how does the state then redress that?
If it's the laws that are discriminatory, repealing them should be sufficient. The last I checked, they were. If it's the people’s beliefs that are discriminatory, that becomes a thornier issue and one beyond legislation. Although I know how liberals like to try.
We're talking about changing people’s hearts and minds. Last time I checked, the attitudes towards minorities in this country was improving (first black president yo). Even in the GOP.
Opportunity is there, it may not be great but it’s there for anyone who puts out the effort. Education is the first step and student loans are available for all who try.
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#402451 - 02/28/09 09:08 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Quote:
Quote:
So the question is, if our country has actively, through the use of discriminatory laws, prevented a person or group of persons from achieving that prosperity... how does the state then redress that?
If it's the laws that are discriminatory, repealing them should be sufficient. The last I checked, they were. If it's the people’s beliefs that are discriminatory, that becomes a thornier issue and one beyond legislation. Although I know how liberals like to try.
We're talking about changing people’s hearts and minds. Last time I checked, the attitudes towards minorities in this country was improving (first black president yo). Even in the GOP.
Opportunity is there, it may not be great but it’s there for anyone who puts out the effort. Education is the first step and student loans are available for all who try.
That sidestep was positively Palinesque. But typical of conservatives in general. If you don't like the question you're asked, simply ask yourself a different one and answer that one.
Not to belabor the point, but that's why I used the past tense: "our country has...". Yes, all those laws have been repealed. For the past 45 years, there has been de jure, if not de facto equality of opportunity in this country. And no, it doesn't have a damn thing to do with changing "hearts and minds". I honestly do not give a shit what people think or feel toward one race, gender, orientation or another. It is not the place of the government to dictate people's beliefs, and I'm ardently opposed to hate crime laws for just that reason. Obama's election demonstrates just how much our attitudes toward race have changed... but otherwise, people are free to hate niggers, chinks, spicks, ragheads, kikes, fags, wops, gimps, dykes, or whomever they choose. It's part of what makes America great!
But nothing you said comes close to answering my question. Which is, given the economic disparity and the culture of poverty that plagues certain minorities [ African Americans and Native Americans esp, having received the worst ethnicidal assrapings in US history ], what then does this country do to undo what's been done? Or do we simply sweep it all under the rug, tell everyone to let bygones be bygones, and pretend that everyone starts life with an equal chance to grab the brass ring?
btw, did anyone happen to catch Rush Limbaugh's "first address to the nation"? His performance was spectacular. But the audience's response shows how completely the Right has surrendered the Middle to Obama. Now they're just retreating to safe ground... The wingnuts in their base.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402456 - 03/01/09 07:04 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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Quote:
That sidestep was positively Palinesque. But typical of conservatives in general. If you don't like the question you're asked, simply ask yourself a different one and answer that one.
Bullshit, you asked about discriminatory laws I answered. Nice fail as usual.
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Not to belabor the point, but that's why I used the past tense: "our country has...". Yes, all those laws have been repealed. For the past 45 years, there has been de jure, if not de facto equality of opportunity in this country. And no, it doesn't have a damn thing to do with changing "hearts and minds". I honestly do not give a shit what people think or feel toward one race, gender, orientation or another. It is not the place of the government to dictate people's beliefs, and I'm ardently opposed to hate crime laws for just that reason. Obama's election demonstrates just how much our attitudes toward race have changed... but otherwise, people are free to hate niggers, chinks, spicks, ragheads, kikes, fags, wops, gimps, dykes, or whomever they choose. It's part of what makes America great!
But nothing you said comes close to answering my question. Which is, given the economic disparity and the culture of poverty that plagues certain minorities [ African Americans and Native Americans esp, having received the worst ethnicidal assrapings in US history ], what then does this country do to undo what's been done? Or do we simply sweep it all under the rug, tell everyone to let bygones be bygones, and pretend that everyone starts life with an equal chance to grab the brass ring?
As I said and you failed to understand, the laws have been repealed, and the opportunities are here, ask any immigrant about what hard work and determination can achieve. Education may not be free but it is available to those who try. You can’t make people take advantage of it, there has to be some freedom of choice. Again I know how liberals hate the idea of freedom of choice. If people choose to fail, hey guess what? They automatically fail.
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btw, did anyone happen to catch Rush Limbaugh's "first address to the nation"? His performance was spectacular. But the audience's response shows how completely the Right has surrendered the Middle to Obama. Now they're just retreating to safe ground... The wingnuts in their base.
No, no one saw this but you. It’s funny how a liberal feels the need to watch that fat drug addict, just to see what he says. I bet there was a lot of hand wringing and teeth gnashing in your place, during that speech.
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#402461 - 03/01/09 03:52 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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I thought my answer was obvious, but what should I expect from someone who washes up in public toilet? No atonement needed. What should be done has been done and no to you inference of reparations.
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#402465 - 03/02/09 06:48 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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I was of course referring to having access to education and financial gains through hard work and determination. You know, what I’ve talking about almost this whole thread. You can twist my meanings anyway you like to fit your own liberal ideals. What ever lets you fall asleep in that dumpster at night, eh? Affirmative Action, as you’ve stated above is an inherently racist institution. And yes you were inferring reparations, nice try, but just as in real life, you fail.
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#402467 - 03/02/09 08:12 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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No, no I haven't understood you, because you've been inexplicably vague.
"having access to education and financial gains through hard work and determination" doesn't describe action taken by the state, but rather by its people. So what you seem to be saying is that the state should take NO action to redress the unjust laws of the past. Is that correct?
And why don't you like Rush? Everything you've said so far seems perfectly in tune with his philosophy. True, he's fat and obnoxious, but that should help you identify with him all the more closely.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402469 - 03/02/09 08:33 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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You can’t legislate or otherwise force help on people who don’t want it. So no action needed / required by the state, as I’ve said. Holding a current generation responsible for the misdeeds or perceived misdeeds of a former generation would amount to a form of reparations. Why do you keep advocating this? In your mind, does a wrong perpetrated on this generation truly make up for a wrong committed by a previous one? Last I heard two wrongs don’t make a right.
Oh I don't like Limbaugh, because I'm a Libertarian.
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#402471 - 03/02/09 02:56 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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You're absolutely right. That's why I'm against race-based affirmative action. It's discriminatory and, as you said, two wrongs don't make a right. Affirmative action based on economic necessity is the only thing I've advocated. If you want to characterize such programs as a form of "reparations", then I suppose you'd call all social welfare programs reparations. But I haven't really been trying to advocate any one position so much as to get you to clarify your own. You've made it perfectly clear that you don't think the state can or should do anything to make up for past wrongs. But is that because you don't believe in welfare in general, or because you simply don't want to acknowledge that the state shares any responsibility for the poverty suffered by some people? When you say things like "perceived misdeeds" it makes me wonder. So, again, it seems you're saying...
"Yes, the state denied equal opportunity to millions of Americans, and actively prevented them from bettering themselves for almost two centuries. But now that those laws have been repealed, all Americans now have equal access to education, an equal chance for success, and the state bears no responsibility for the disadvantages of some."
Do I have that right? Do you agree with that statement or diagree?
And if you agree, how do you explain the disproportionate poverty and crime that afflicts the black and native American communities? Why don't other ethnic groups who suffered equal levels of discrimination -ie Asians or the Irish- suffer from those same problems?
And if you don't mind me asking, who did you vote for in 2008? Because if it was Bob Barr, I'd like to thank you for helping to defeat McCain/Palin.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402474 - 03/02/09 06:05 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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Quote:
You're absolutely right. That's why I'm against race-based affirmative action. It's discriminatory and, as you said, two wrongs don't make a right. Affirmative action based on economic necessity is the only thing I've advocated. If you want to characterize such programs as a form of "reparations", then I suppose you'd call all social welfare programs reparations.
But I haven't really been trying to advocate any one position so much as to get you to clarify your own. You've made it perfectly clear that you don't think the state can or should do anything to make up for past wrongs. But is that because you don't believe in welfare in general, or because you simply don't want to acknowledge that the state shares any responsibility for the poverty suffered by some people? When you say things like "perceived misdeeds" it makes me wonder. So, again, it seems you're saying...
No you can’t say that. Reparations are a payment for past wrongs. If you are trying to right a wrong, as you say, you are indeed advocating a form of reparations.
When I said that I was all for feeding the hungry I meant welfare. Obviously it’s not what you mean by welfare. Some people or all the poor? You said it was righting a wrong, does that mean you think the government is financially responsible for all economically challenged Americans?
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"Yes, the state denied equal opportunity to millions of Americans, and actively prevented them from bettering themselves for almost two centuries. But now that those laws have been repealed, all Americans now have equal access to education, an equal chance for success, and the state bears no responsibility for the disadvantages of some."
Do I have that right? Do you agree with that statement or diagree?
No. I disagree completely with the way that statement is worded.
A long time ago, the government tried to deny certain ethnic groups their constitutional rights with laws, since those laws have been repealed, all citizens and residents have access to education and equal opportunity in the work force. The state however bears no responsibility to those who refuse to contribute to society.
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And if you agree, how do you explain the disproportionate poverty and crime that afflicts the black and native American communities? Why don't other ethnic groups who suffered equal levels of discrimination -ie Asians or the Irish- suffer from those same problems?
Those other ethnic groups didn’t sit around and wait for the government to solve their problems for them. They took advantage of education and capitalism to work their way up in American Society.
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And if you don't mind me asking, who did you vote for in 2008? Because if it was Bob Barr, I'd like to thank you for helping to defeat McCain/Palin.
What about “I’m a Libertarian” stumped you?
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#402477 - 03/02/09 07:52 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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When I said that I was all for feeding the hungry I meant welfare. Obviously it’s not what you mean by welfare. Some people or all the poor? You said it was righting a wrong, does that mean you think the government is financially responsible for all economically challenged Americans?
No, not for those unwilling to help themselves. But I do think we all benefit from a social safety net to help those who fall on hard times, or who've suffered from established discrimination. And I do think it should be there for all Americans in need... regardless of race. It just makes more economic sense in the long run. Of course there are always going to be people who take advantage of these programs, or who simply refuse to avail themselves... but I do think the benefits outweigh the costs.
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A long time ago, the government tried to deny certain ethnic groups their constitutional rights with laws
So the govt didn't deny some their rights, they only "tried"?
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since those laws have been repealed, all citizens and residents have access to education and equal opportunity in the work force.
I'm frankly shocked at your naivete if you actually believe this. Although I noticed you weren't quite brazen enough to leave the word "equal" in front of the word "education". At least there's some limit to your powers of self-deception.
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Those other ethnic groups didn’t sit around and wait for the government to solve their problems for them. They took advantage of education and capitalism to work their way up in American Society.
Why do you think that is? Why such a dramatic difference? Since it seems to be your contention that the state wasn't the deciding factor, I'd like to hear your theory.
And I'd like to point out that some of those people "sitting around, waiting" don't expect the govt to do more than solve the problems that it created.
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What about “I’m a Libertarian” stumped you?
I'm not sure why you have this problem with giving direct answers to direct questions. You can vote for anyone you want in the general election, regardless of party affiliation. So I'll ask again... did you vote for Barr, someone else, or not at all?
Incidentally, if tomorrow the govt kicked you and your wife out of your home, made it legal for employers to deny you work for any arbitrary reason, and left you languishing in poverty... would you say your children would have a legitimate grievance against the govt for their economic status after you had died?
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402479 - 03/02/09 08:58 PM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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Quote:
No, not for those unwilling to help themselves. But I do think we all benefit from a social safety net to help those who fall on hard times, or who've suffered from established discrimination. And I do think it should be there for all Americans in need... regardless of race. It just makes more economic sense in the long run. Of course there are always going to be people who take advantage of these programs, or who simply refuse to avail themselves... but I do think the benefits outweigh the costs.
I’m quite all right with paying to feed only those who need it. If you were a taxpayer you would feel the same way.
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So the govt didn't deny some their rights, they only "tried"?
Depends on where you went. In the south the discrimination was much more intense than the northern states. I know liberals like to blanket everything in generalities, but I won’t.
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I'm frankly shocked at your naivete if you actually believe this. Although I noticed you weren't quite brazen enough to leave the word "equal" in front of the word "education". At least there's some limit to your powers of self-deception.
Are you saying there are people who are being kept from an education by the government? That the “Equal Opportunity Employer” isn’t federal law?
There will never be true equality in a sense. The wealthy and powerful will always have access to better. That’s true no matter where in the world you go, even in the workers paradise of Venezuela.
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Why do you think that is? Why such a dramatic difference? Since it seems to be your contention that the state wasn't the deciding factor, I'd like to hear your theory.
And I'd like to point out that some of those people "sitting around, waiting" don't expect the govt to do more than solve the problems that it created.
Again your expecting generalities, but the realities are much more complicated. Too complicated to work out all the reasons and factors in a couple of lines on a porn message board.
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I'm not sure why you have this problem with giving direct answers to direct questions. You can vote for anyone you want in the general election, regardless of party affiliation. So I'll ask again... did you vote for Barr, someone else, or not at all?
I don’t see why you have this problem adding 2 and 2. Yet somehow you always manage to fail.
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Incidentally, if tomorrow the govt kicked you and your wife out of your home, made it legal for employers to deny you work for any arbitrary reason, and left you languishing in poverty... would you say your children would have a legitimate grievance against the govt for their economic status after you had died?
Problem is people never lost their rights, they just gradually gained them over time until the modern era. Although I’ll play your, moralizing in hindsight, game. No. I would want my children to live for themselves, their own children, and to not be consumed by my fights.
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#402482 - 03/03/09 12:10 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Quote:
Depends on where you went. In the south the discrimination was much more intense than the northern states. I know liberals like to blanket everything in generalities, but I won’t.
Ok then, let's just say everywhere there was a native population. And discrimination wasn't "intense" in the south, it was institutionalized. I suggest picking up a book on Jim Crow and doing some reading.
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Are you saying there are people who are being kept from an education by the government? That the “Equal Opportunity Employer” isn’t federal law?
I'm saying that it takes a pretty opaque set of rose-colored glasses to imagine that a kid growing up in Pacoima or Hawaiian Gardens, or on the Pine Ridge reservation is going to have as good a chance at a University education as a kid growing up in Chevy Chase. Guess which places have more brown people. Probably just a coincidence though.
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Again your expecting generalities, but the realities are much more complicated. Too complicated to work out all the reasons and factors in a couple of lines on a porn message board.
Dodge #1. After all the hot air you've been blowing, now you're afraid of long-winded explanations? You could easily boil it down to a few lines, but you're afraid to say what you really think. Grow a pair.
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I'm not sure why you have this problem with giving direct answers to direct questions. You can vote for anyone you want in the general election, regardless of party affiliation. So I'll ask again... did you vote for Barr, someone else, or not at all?
I don’t see why you have this problem adding 2 and 2. Yet somehow you always manage to fail.
Dodge #2. Ok, for whatever reason, you refuse to answer this one. I'm guessing you either A) voted for McCain, or more likely B) didn't vote at all.
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Problem is people never lost their rights, they just gradually gained them over time until the modern era.
They didn't huh? Too bad you can't tell that to all those Natives, who were rounded up and herded onto reservations... or the Sioux who lost the Black Hills. Maybe they'd even tell you about the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868. It's an eye-opener. You also can't tell that to all those African kids who were chained up and stacked like cordwood in the holds of slave ships. They probably felt like they lost a few rights. And it also might interest you to know that the first African immigrants came to Virginia as indentured servants, and were not only freed but became property holders. After 1705 they probably felt like they lost a few rights too. I'm sure you coulda set them straight though.
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No. I would want my children to live for themselves, their own children, and to not be consumed by my fights.
That's very magnanimous of you. You must think all those Jewish familys sueing to recover their family fortunes from the German govt are awfully petty.
At any rate, this shit is starting to turn into an ADT thread, and I'm getting "h2c fatigue" [ not unlike the exhaustion that accompanies slamming one's forehead repeatedly against a brick wall ]. I'm giving you the last word, so make it a good one. You won't, but hope springs eternal.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402484 - 03/03/09 12:12 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 1059
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You two are like a gay Sam and Diane.
_________________________
Honestly, I don't know...I'm torn. We haven't talked since AVN (other than the hearing in February)- Eric on Bree Olson
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#402486 - 03/03/09 12:15 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Which one am I?
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#402488 - 03/03/09 05:06 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Kurt Lackwood's Fluffer
Registered: 08/04/06
Posts: 1155
Loc: U.S. Outpost 31
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The catcher.
_________________________
I know you gentlemen have been through a lot,and when you find the time...I'd rather not spend the rest of the winter tied to this fucking couch!
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#402491 - 03/03/09 07:08 AM
Re: RIP GOP
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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Which one am I?
You know you’re always the bottom.
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Ok then, let's just say everywhere there was a native population. And discrimination wasn't "intense" in the south, it was institutionalized. I suggest picking up a book on Jim Crow and doing some reading.
Once again you’re painting in absolutes. I suggest you try to read THIS and maybe you’ll realize Blacks and Indians weren’t the helpless victims you liberals enjoy making them out to be.
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I'm saying that it takes a pretty opaque set of rose-colored glasses to imagine that a kid growing up in Pacoima or Hawaiian Gardens, or on the Pine Ridge reservation is going to have as good a chance at a University education as a kid growing up in Chevy Chase. Guess which places have more brown people. Probably just a coincidence though.
Did I say it was great Education? No. So what you’re saying that they have little access to education and that applying them selves to the education that’s available or working hard will not improve their lives. The defeatist liberal dogma finally rears its ugly head. Only throwing money at it and creating big huge government agencies will solve the problem. Thank you oh liberal guru.
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Dodge #1. After all the hot air you've been blowing, now you're afraid of long-winded explanations? You could easily boil it down to a few lines, but you're afraid to say what you really think. Grow a pair.
Fail #10,345 – I‘ve said the same thing other places on this board. Try this.
HERE
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Dodge #2. Ok, for whatever reason, you refuse to answer this one. I'm guessing you either A) voted for McCain, or more likely B) didn't vote at all.
I’ve already said who I’ve voted for in many other threads. I’m not going to locate any for you, out of principle, you’ll have to do it yourself. Start HERE
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They didn't huh? Too bad you can't tell that to all those Natives, who were rounded up and herded onto reservations... or the Sioux who lost the Black Hills. Maybe they'd even tell you about the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868. It's an eye-opener. You also can't tell that to all those African kids who were chained up and stacked like cordwood in the holds of slave ships. They probably felt like they lost a few rights. And it also might interest you to know that the first African immigrants came to Virginia as indentured servants, and were not only freed but became property holders. After 1705 they probably felt like they lost a few rights too. I'm sure you coulda set them straight though.
So you’re saying that these ethnic groups used to have rights under the US government, but had them taken away? It sounds like it’s you who could use the history review.
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That's very magnanimous of you. You must think all those Jewish familys sueing to recover their family fortunes from the German govt are awfully petty.
Nice spin, but you can’t apply what I said to different people under completely different circumstances.
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At any rate, this shit is starting to turn into an ADT thread, and I'm getting "h2c fatigue" [ not unlike the exhaustion that accompanies slamming one's forehead repeatedly against a brick wall ]. I'm giving you the last word, so make it a good one. You won't, but hope springs eternal.
I win. I always do. See this is why you always fail. No determination. How can you help the repressed people of this country when you can’t even help yourself?
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