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#392612 - 01/20/09 04:38 AM big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
Whoremaster

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
Gee, I don't know if I should join the party at Tehran, San Fran, Tijuana or IRS bureaucrat headquarters. Someday you'll be able to tell your grandkids that America was once a special place that people would actually dig tunnels to enter. Back before it became just one of many random socialist welfare states in the UN (NWO Headquarters). Back when people had freedom to do non-pc things like smoke in public, insist on English only, pay for the best (non-rationed) health care if they want or make so called anti-feminist porn with consenting adults. We already give free health care to America's poor. Once we start giving it to the middle class, it's over. You can never undue a government entitlement ("what, don't you care about the children?!"). This has always been the bait for socialism, which takes over economies and ways of life. American citizens who have done this to the delight of America haters abroad and at the UN, I hope you're satisfied. You and your children should get cancer. Go to hell!
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#392613 - 01/20/09 05:22 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Crocodile Offline
Pervert

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 2056
Vox populi, vox Dei. America survived Carter, she'll survive Obama. Rich people who donated money to Obama won't allow him to go to far.
_________________________
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#392614 - 01/20/09 05:24 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
Whoremaster

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
You don't understand. This is different.
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#392615 - 01/20/09 06:37 AM Re: big day for America haters!
SexDJ Offline
AC Cream Wannabe

Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
It IS different, and we will be lucky if we survive it. There will be so much damage done in the next 4 years that it will take 20 years to undo it all, if indeed it can be undone. At the end of this 4 years people will be tossing the great messiah out on his ear after watching their country turn to ashes. Carter was just a preface to the mess this clothless emperor is going to perpetrate. I hope everyone enjoys "the great experiment"

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#392616 - 01/20/09 06:46 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Browser Offline
Max Hardcore Prison Bitch

Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 204
^^^ Um, sorry pal. There was already enough damage done the last 8 years that it is going to take 20 years to fix.

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#392617 - 01/20/09 07:03 AM Re: big day for America haters!
charin Offline
Gag Factor Guru
Porn Jesus

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 5290
Loc: Dayton
Sounds like a libertarian rant to me. You are on your own, anything goes.

The world wants us to prosper, it is a global economy. The world wants us to use our power in responsible ways. The world wants us to once again be the shining city on the hill. The small groups of true America haters don't care who runs our Government, they hate us any way, because we are different from them.

You are free to smoke in your own space, watch pron, and pay for the best in health care. You are also free to be as entrapenureal as you wish, as long as you follow basic rules (safety, employment rules, etc.) and contribute your fair share to the common good.

It is time for this generation to become responsible, our parents and grand parents built up an amazing infrastructure that has allowed this free enterprise system to thrive, we must keep it in good repair. Government funded research has given us medical breakthroughs that have saved my life and the lives of many others, it is now our responsibility to make this available without crippling the small business owners and huge auto makers. We can do this while keeping it in the private sector, but some rules definitely need to change. People should not be shackled to their oar because of health insurance rules.

Any decent society has a responsibility to care for the least of their number. This is even more important when the basic framework is economic competition, or capitalism. I am fortunate, I can compete in the job market and thrive. But there must be a social safety net for those who, for various reasons, cannot compete. The real challenge is to get to these populations in early childhood, and try to give them the tools to compete.

We all had help from somewhere. My father, my Army benefits, my employer giving me a second chance. All these "investments" paid off, now I am productive and a positive part of society. I don't mind giving back, helping to lift others, doing my fair share.

It is a call for all Americans to pull together, to level the playing field so those who work, gain, and those who have a great deal of capital to invest, are required to do so within rules that protect the basic financial structure. It is time for the corporations that profit from the infrastructure to do their fair share to maintain it.

Please dispose of the knee-jerk ideological reactions, shutting out the ideas of others. This new day in America will include conversations with fiscal and social conservatives, people who view freedom in a different way, folks like yourself if you will open up to the dialog.

Again, work with it. We can all win here. We all love our country, our visions are not that far apart. We can get there.

-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy
_________________________
Fuck 'em all but nine.

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#392618 - 01/20/09 07:40 AM Re: big day for America haters!
SexDJ Offline
AC Cream Wannabe

Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
Quote:

^^^ Um, sorry pal. There was already enough damage done the last 8 years that it is going to take 20 years to fix.



The Bush administration won't even be able to compare to the destruction that The Great Messiah is about to unleash on his joyous worshippers. They wanted him..they voted for him..I hope they enjoy the Kool-Aid he's about to start serving.

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#392619 - 01/20/09 08:24 AM Re: big day for America haters!
freestylah Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
I'm not an American and have no direct ties to the US. I've been in the US twice for a total of 35-40 days. There's a lot to like in the US and a lot to, uhm, unlike.

Las Vegas was a great experience; you are blessed with a variety of landscapes that most countries can only dream of. There are a whole lot of friendly, decent, nice people willing to help you with whatever you want. (It's their job, but nonetheless.)

Of course, Budweiser sucks (rice in beer?!?), Wendy is crap and speed limits on a deserted highway in the middle of the night don't make sense. I'm not keen on big American cars either, but that's a very minor issue.

What I don't like is US political leadership (or lack thereof) and the form of society that has been developed by these politicians since Reagan's 2nd term. It's most probably a difference in background, history, upbringing and what not, but I'm appalled by what some US citizens call a 'health care system' and other things that show an absolute lack of solidarity. But that's limited to your own country, so it's none of my business.

Without going into details, I'll just state that 98% of my irritation/anger regarding the US is caused by its foreign policy.

Trust me, the US is very, very far from being or becoming a socialist welfare state. So, no need to hate!

[/rant]
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The only thing you got that I want, is your suffering.

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#392620 - 01/20/09 08:36 AM Re: big day for America haters!
elaborator Offline
Porn Icon

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 3440
Loc: Jaundice Town
coke you have got to be the most idiotic poster on this site.
_________________________





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#392621 - 01/20/09 08:57 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
Whoremaster

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
Quote:

coke you have got to be the most idiotic poster on this site.





but my credentials are impeccable
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#392622 - 01/20/09 09:22 AM Re: big day for America haters!
SexDJ Offline
AC Cream Wannabe

Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
Quote:





Trust me, the US is very, very far from being or becoming a socialist welfare state.

[/rant]



Just give King Barack a little time. We'll be the most PC, Green, Socialist Welfare state on the planet. Our economy will be in ruins, the middle class will be wiped out, unemployment will be at 30% or more..and we will NEVER be a major player on the world state again. In a couple of years you will hear a stunning thud as the entire populace faints with the realization that they have put into motion the complete destruction of the US..and they..the sheeple did it to themselves. There will be nothing for those of us who knew better than to vote for this flash-in-the-pan to gloat over, because there will simply be nothing left. I hope the sheeple enjoy the next couple years.

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#392623 - 01/20/09 09:46 AM Re: big day for America haters!
charin Offline
Gag Factor Guru
Porn Jesus

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 5290
Loc: Dayton
Quote:

Quote:





Trust me, the US is very, very far from being or becoming a socialist welfare state.

[/rant]



Just give King Barack a little time. We'll be the most PC, Green, Socialist Welfare state on the planet. Our economy will be in ruins, the middle class will be wiped out, unemployment will be at 30% or more..and we will NEVER be a major player on the world state again. In a couple of years you will hear a stunning thud as the entire populace faints with the realization that they have put into motion the complete destruction of the US..and they..the sheeple did it to themselves. There will be nothing for those of us who knew better than to vote for this flash-in-the-pan to gloat over, because there will simply be nothing left. I hope the sheeple enjoy the next couple years.




Bookmark this for January 20, 2011. Fair?

-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy
_________________________
Fuck 'em all but nine.

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#392625 - 01/20/09 10:10 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
Whoremaster

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
Quote:

Here in NJ, the CW Network, Channel 11, rushed off the air at 1PM, (while Barack was signing the transfer of power) on the dot to get to what show....??
JUDGE MATHIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





who the fuck cares? focus
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#392626 - 01/20/09 11:17 AM Re: big day for America haters!
tattypatty Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 7599
Loc: a site known for its tolerance...
Fuck that, Mathis is a piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimp.

Haha I gotta laugh at the shit I read coming from the U.S. these days. Half the people are falling at the feet of a guy who hasn't done anything as president yet and the other half are acting like America is going to turn into the USSR tomorrow. Jeez...
While I've found this Obama fella quite charming and whatnot, he is a politician; no more no less. The states will pretty much be at the same place it is now in 4 years: You'll still be bombing people and homos still won't be allowed to marry. If he turns America around in the slightest, that'll be swell. Regardless, I wish you assholes the best. I really do....
_________________________
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#392627 - 01/20/09 12:22 PM Re: big day for America haters!
Walrus Offline
Max Hardcore Prison Bitch

Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 310
Quote:

Here in NJ, the CW Network, Channel 11, rushed off the air at 1PM, (while Barack was signing the transfer of power) on the dot to get to what show....??
JUDGE MATHIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Oh course they did.
What race watches CW? Blacks
What race sit at home at 1 pm because they don't work? Blacks
People like that are the people that are the people that are going to have Obama portraits on their wall next to their MLK portraits.

They may love Obama but he isn't above the drama shown on your average episode of Mathis.

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#392628 - 01/20/09 12:55 PM Re: big day for America haters!
LouCypher Offline
@
Porn Jesus

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 9958
Loc: fortified
Quote:

coke you have got to be the most idiotic poster on this site.




I'm sure he's just misunderstood elabo, as in we have no idea how many glory holes Cock Symbolism can multitask in an 8 hr shift. Ever since he learned to reverse his digestive system he's been shift leader at 3 exit ramps.
_________________________
i just lock, load, and regret. - jamesn

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#392629 - 01/20/09 01:06 PM Re: big day for America haters!
SexDJ Offline
AC Cream Wannabe

Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:





Trust me, the US is very, very far from being or becoming a socialist welfare state.

[/rant]



Just give King Barack a little time. We'll be the most PC, Green, Socialist Welfare state on the planet. Our economy will be in ruins, the middle class will be wiped out, unemployment will be at 30% or more..and we will NEVER be a major player on the world state again. In a couple of years you will hear a stunning thud as the entire populace faints with the realization that they have put into motion the complete destruction of the US..and they..the sheeple did it to themselves. There will be nothing for those of us who knew better than to vote for this flash-in-the-pan to gloat over, because there will simply be nothing left. I hope the sheeple enjoy the next couple years.




Bookmark this for January 20, 2011. Fair?

-Chuck, Vegetarian fanboy



Yes. Fair. I would like to be proven wrong.

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#392630 - 01/20/09 01:34 PM Re: big day for America haters!
Crocodile Offline
Pervert

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 2056
Dow 7,947.58 -333.64 (-4.03%)
_________________________
"If you keep making fun of me, I might just get pissed and not post on here anymore. Start taking me seriously. I'm a student now" Fatja

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#392631 - 01/20/09 01:57 PM Re: big day for America haters!
JRV Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
Quote:


but I'm appalled by what some US citizens call a 'health care system'




I doubt it's the health care system that bothers you: I suspect that paying for services rendered is the annoyance. It's the idea that health care costs money, just like everything else in life, that is hard to grasp for those who live in Europe (and pay European tax rates).

PS. The only medical system that might offer the same breadth and capabilities as found in the US is perhaps France.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock

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#392633 - 01/20/09 09:58 PM Re: big day for America haters!
Dean Wormer Offline
Pervert

Registered: 08/05/05
Posts: 2116
Loc: Faber College
Quote:

You can never undue a government entitlement.




The above quote is food for thought. Let's hope that there are no more.
_________________________
It was a wonderful community with some very enjoyable members. But the vast majority were like German housewives circa 1943 prenteding that horrib;le smell wafting through their open windowsd was just the neighbors having a cookout..--Windsock

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#392634 - 01/21/09 09:54 AM Re: big day for America haters!
freestylah Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
JRV wrote:

Quote:

I doubt it's the health care system that bothers you: I suspect that paying for services rendered is the annoyance. It's the idea that health care costs money, just like everything else in life, that is hard to grasp for those who live in Europe (and pay European tax rates).

PS. The only medical system that might offer the same breadth and capabilities as found in the US is perhaps France.




Paying for services rendered is not the problem, believe me. I'm not that cheap. I know health care costs money and I'm more than willing to pay my share.
What I find lacking in (for example) the US system is solidarity. It was and still is hard to imagine that someone is sick and can't get treatment, because he/she has not enough money. That's where my main problem is, not with the payment of things.

JRV, how did you arrive at your PS about the French medical system?
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The only thing you got that I want, is your suffering.

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#392635 - 01/21/09 10:36 AM Re: big day for America haters!
SexDJ Offline
AC Cream Wannabe

Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
We have great healthcare for the poor. It's called Medicaid, better yet known as welfare. They get better health bennies than those who work and pay taxes and have to contribute to their own health care bennies. We..the taxpayers give the poor gold-card healthcare. Just ask any hospital nurse who gets the best bennies..it's the so-called poor who live high on US tax dollars. They are the most arrogant and difficult of all hospital patients.

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#392636 - 01/22/09 02:07 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Crocodile Offline
Pervert

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 2056
freestylah: Peple can live decades without access to any kind of professional health care, but won't survive more then a few days without food. Now last time I was in the Netherlands I was expected to pay for my food myself! Do you find solidarity lacking in this system? Do you honestly believe it would be better if the state just took say 100 euros every month from every citizen (more from the rich of course) and then redistribute food rations? That's basically how most European nationalized health care system work.
_________________________
"If you keep making fun of me, I might just get pissed and not post on here anymore. Start taking me seriously. I'm a student now" Fatja

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#392637 - 01/22/09 06:00 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Soopergrizz Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 3724
Loc: Paddling my canoe in the wild
Quote:

Do you honestly believe it would be better if the state just took say 100 euros every month from every citizen (more from the rich of course) and then redistribute food rations?





What a novel idea! Maybe the USA should consider this revolutionary concept. In order to allow people some choice, the gov't could even consider giving folks some kind of coupon they could redeem. Perhaps they could call it something like Food Stamps.

I don't suppose it would ever catch on in advanced societies like yours though.
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#392638 - 01/22/09 06:12 AM Re: big day for America haters!
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
What we need are free minor emergency clinics in poorer areas. Staff them with interns and osteopaths trying to repay student loans. This would take a major burden off of the emergency rooms. Then limit law suits and the amounts that can be won (with a lawyer in the white house, yeah right) this will drive malpractice insurance down. If we were to take these two steps I doubt we would need to nationalize health care.

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#392639 - 01/22/09 09:13 AM Re: big day for America haters!
JRV Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
Quote:

Quote:


PS. The only medical system that might offer the same breadth and capabilities as found in the US is perhaps France.




Paying for services rendered is not the problem, believe me. I'm not that cheap. I know health care costs money and I'm more than willing to pay my share.
What I find lacking in (for example) the US system is solidarity. It was and still is hard to imagine that someone is sick and can't get treatment, because he/she has not enough money. That's where my main problem is, not with the payment of things.




This doesn't make sense. The first sentence says "Paying for services rendered is not the problem" but the fifth sentence directly contradicts with "someone is sick and can't get treatment, because he/she has not enough money".

Generally poor people can qualify for the government welfare programs: they don't have to do without. The gap is in not-quite-poor but not-rich-enough-to-pay and don't-have-other-means. Unfortunately without doubling taxes there's no way to extend freebies all the way up into the middle class range.

Quote:


JRV, how did you arrive at your PS about the French medical system?



When I read papers that mention medical advances and such, they mostly come from two countries: the US and France. And when rich people from third-world countries travel for medical treatment they almost always go to France or the US. I would be interested in a description of the French system from an economic standpoint as to how they're apparently able to keep up R&D spending when other countries with socialized health care systems seemingly don't.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock

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#392640 - 01/22/09 09:27 AM Re: big day for America haters!
JRV Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
Quote:


Staff them with interns and osteopaths trying to repay student loans. This would take a major burden off of the emergency rooms.




Excellent. I have long wondered if public hospitals have an ulterior motive in treating uninsured in emergency rooms, i.e., driving up traffic in expensive areas. They probably want welfare money to cover ER overhead.

Quote:

If we were to take these two steps I doubt we would need to nationalize health care.



The big thing in my mind is to require welfare and insurance to actually pay their bills. Right now neither pays the costs: instead they either pay some fixed pre-determined number not directly related to the cost or will decide after-the-fact which parts of the treatment they'll pay for and which they won't. And insurance companies often take over a year to pay.

Even the smallest General Practitioner usually had a full-time employee who does nothing but try to get welfare and insurance to pay bills. That adds up: my family doc has one nurse and two people(!) trying to get such payments.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock

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#392641 - 01/22/09 09:54 AM Re: big day for America haters!
freestylah Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
Quote:

This doesn't make sense. The first sentence says "Paying for services rendered is not the problem" but the fifth sentence directly contradicts with "someone is sick and can't get treatment, because he/she has not enough money".




I expressed myself poorly. What I meant to say is, that people are willing to pay for health care (in a reasonable way).

Quote:

The gap is in not-quite-poor but not-rich-enough-to-pay and don't-have-other-means.




This is what I was driving at, I guess. I know some (not many) people in the US. They had severe problems with what you describe. Low-paying job, not enough insurance and then breaking a leg or something. Receiving medical bills for hundreds of dollars and no reserve to cough up the money.

Quote:

When I read papers that mention medical advances and such, they mostly come from two countries: the US and France. And when rich people from third-world countries travel for medical treatment they almost always go to France or the US. I would be interested in a description of the French system from an economic standpoint as to how they're apparently able to keep up R&D spending when other countries with socialized health care systems seemingly don't.




This explanation doesn't relate to 'a medical system that offers the same breadth and capabilities'. You refer to medical inventions/enhancements.
I think the reason people go to the US and/or France has more to do with the enormous private health care system in the US and the ties France still holds with a lot of developing countries.
I have no idea how the french system is organized and what the ratio is between public and private medical institutions.
_________________________
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#392642 - 01/22/09 10:18 AM Re: big day for America haters!
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
JRV

I think the cost of malpractice insurance is the big weight around the health care systems neck. The health care system is like a real organism in many ways, for it to really prosper there needs to be an absence of parasites. In this case lawyers and insurers.

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#392643 - 01/22/09 03:05 PM Re: big day for America haters!
TeriJoSnortsCoke Offline
AC Cream Wannabe

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 429
Quote:

We have great healthcare for the poor. It's called Medicaid, better yet known as welfare. They get better health bennies than those who work and pay taxes and have to contribute to their own health care bennies. We..the taxpayers give the poor gold-card healthcare. Just ask any hospital nurse who gets the best bennies..it's the so-called poor who live high on US tax dollars. They are the most arrogant and difficult of all hospital patients.




That may be one of the stupidest goddamned things I've ever read. If you are a white single male with no kids in the picture who's down on his luck you get SHIT!
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#392644 - 01/22/09 08:24 PM Re: big day for America haters!
RenfieldGyps Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 4726
Loc: The City That Never Sleeps, Tr...
NOT everyone gets medicaid just like that. There are requirements and they want to know your whole life, all your business. It's ridiculous. But hey if you cant afford healthcare and you need medication daily then go for it and why not, especially if you're not paying.
And there are some people in the world that have worked their whole lives, then find themselves unemployed. If they apply for Medicaid and get it how is that sponging off of taxpayers when that person has paid taxes his/her whole life also. Your post is stupid. And Welfare and Medicaid are 2 totally different things.

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#392645 - 01/22/09 08:53 PM Re: big day for America haters!
tattypatty Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 01/30/08
Posts: 7599
Loc: a site known for its tolerance...
Dunno what all the resistance is to 'socialized' medicine; maybe because I grew up north of the border. I thank fuck we have it, though. I got great (and fast) treatment when I had cancer and I'm still breathing because of it(insert comeback here).

I know Michael Moore is a douche, but he made kind of an interesting point about how Americans don't pay private fees for police or Fire Dept. emergencies, as they are often a matter of life-and-death. He made the comparison with medical treatment. Maybe that's just naive.

60 minutes once did a story on a program that help pay the fees for medical students on the condition that they'd spend some time working in poor communities once they became doctors (sadly, it was an investigation of doctors who had skipped out on their end).....
_________________________
"I'll never forget the moment during the lovely Alyssa Allure's scene in 'American Bukkake' where the fellow got out of his wheel chair to ejaculate on her face. It was grotesque but had a certain frisson." -Sock

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#392646 - 01/22/09 10:28 PM Re: big day for America haters!
elaborator Offline
Porn Icon

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 3440
Loc: Jaundice Town
Quote:

I thank fuck we have it, though. I got great (and fast) treatment when I had cancer and I'm still breathing because of it(insert comeback here).





that pretty much sums it up...


Any fagot americans who bemoan Socialized Medicine are likely just idiot Republican fucks who try to argue that FDR didn't rescue us from the Depression...


... Fuck Them


XPT has become too chockablock with them


those fagot Rush/hannity cock sucking Republican Idiots.


_________________________





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#392647 - 01/22/09 10:45 PM Re: big day for America haters!
NitneLiun Offline
Registered Sex Offender

Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini got the U.S. out of the great depression.
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#392648 - 01/22/09 10:48 PM Re: big day for America haters!
elaborator Offline
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Registered: 01/27/06
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Niteliun you are so wrong it hurts
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#392649 - 01/22/09 11:26 PM Re: big day for America haters!
tattypatty Offline
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#392650 - 01/22/09 11:55 PM Re: big day for America haters!
JRV Offline
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Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
Quote:

Niteliun you are so wrong it hurts



He's right. The build-up into WW2 is what finally got people jobs.
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#392651 - 01/23/09 10:22 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Spunko Offline
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Registered: 08/04/06
Posts: 1155
Loc: U.S. Outpost 31
Elaborator wrote...

"Any fagot americans who bemoan Socialized Medicine are likely just idiot Republican fucks who try to argue that FDR didn't rescue us from the Depression..."


Henry Morgenthau(FDR Treasury Secretary) said,in 1939...

"We have tried spending money . . . and it does not work . . . we have just as much unemployment . . . and an enormous debt to boot."




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#392652 - 01/23/09 01:13 PM Re: big day for America haters!
NitneLiun Offline
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Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
As someone who studied economics at the graduate level, I was under the impression that the Keynesian model was discredited decades ago. I've never met an economist who actually advocated the Keynesian approach. I would be astonished that the Obama administration and congressional Democrats believe that growth will be restored to the economy simply by spending a trillion dollars. Of course, they really don't by into the idea. They have bigger fish to fry. They are seeking to nationalize the banking system and create a middle class that is entirely dependent on the government.
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#392653 - 01/23/09 04:43 PM Re: big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
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Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
Keynesianism was discredited in some respects to economists specifically, but not to other types of social scientists (especially political scienctists and historians). It is still totally overrepresented at most elite schools like London School of E, Harvard etc. It will help justify all the bullshit Obama wants to do for political reasons.


I assume your graduate work was at Penn State. Have a phd?

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#392654 - 01/24/09 04:08 AM Re: big day for America haters!
JRV Offline
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Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
Quote:


This explanation doesn't relate to 'a medical system that offers the same breadth and capabilities'. You refer to medical inventions/enhancements.

I have no idea how the french system is organized and what the ratio is between public and private medical institutions.



"breadth" was meant to imply how many diseases can be treated, and how many different options are available for each. "Capabilities" was the wrong word - I meant to refer to how refined each procedure is.

The R&D tie is that R&D tends increases the number of procedures or refine the ones that exist. I'm assuming that the results tend to be available locally first, and that any insurance/socialized system will be hostile towards anything expensive if there is an alternative that is "good enough" in the eyes of the bureaucrats responsible for the budget.

My question regarding France isn't public/private per se but rather how they manage to encourage so much R&D in a (presumably) socialized medical system. You wouldn't expect to see that kind of R&D effort in the socialized medical systems, but it appears France has a way around that.

Quote:


I think the reason people go to the US and/or France has more to do with the enormous private health care system in the US and the ties France still holds with a lot of developing countries.




The US sees a lot of patients from Europe and Canada too, either for procedures not available at home or when the waiting list (rationing/budgeting) is too long.

Quote:

Dunno what all the resistance is to 'socialized' medicine; maybe because I grew up north of the border. I thank fuck we have it, though. I got great (and fast) treatment when I had cancer



Yes, but the treatment, procedures used, etc, almost certainly weren't developed there. They just used the R&D results paid for elsewhere, and used drugs subsidized south of the border. You need a way to encourage R&D in a socialized system: Canada doesn't, though France apparently does.

Quote:

I know Michael Moore is a douche, but he made kind of an interesting point about how Americans don't pay private fees for police or Fire Dept. emergencies, as they are often a matter of life-and-death. He made the comparison with medical treatment.




As far as I know ambulance calls are billed throughout the US. I know that here it's about $500 per call. The big difference between hospitals and fire/police is cost: fire and police capabilities are cheap and the costs controllable, whereas medical system costs are far higher and cannot be controlled locally (by the people who fund fire/police)

(insurance pays that ambulance bill if you have it)

There has been talk in some states about charging for SAR services (search & rescue) though I don't know if it's been done or not. A SAR search triggered by a 406 beacon can be charged by law if it was a false alert but I don't think it's happened yet.
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#392655 - 01/24/09 02:11 PM Re: big day for America haters!
SexDJ Offline
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Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
Quote:

And Welfare and Medicaid are 2 totally different things.



MediCAID IS welfare's medical component. MediCARE is the medical component of Social Security...you know, for the people who worked, and paid their taxes so the lazy could collect welfare and mediCAID.

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#392656 - 01/24/09 09:01 PM Re: big day for America haters!
Gunker Offline
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Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
Quote:

As someone who studied economics at the graduate level, I was under the impression that the Keynesian model was discredited decades ago.




It wasn't so much discredited but replaced by the Milton Friedman "Shock Doctrine" approach of the Corporation being the be-all and end-all of economic thought, regardless of the thousands of unionists, leftists, middle-class, etc. being "disappeared*" (i.e. executed, jailed, exiled, newly-homeless, etc.).

Given the current economic meltdown (no more bubbles!), I would proffer that leaving so much power to multi-national corporations may not be such a great idea, and that it is a better alternative for a nation's people to manage important industries (e.g. energy, health care, banks, etc.) to ensure that part of the Constitution about the "Right of Happiness" is followed instead of given sarcastic lip service by Rupurt Murdoch's minions.

*-"Chilean court reenacts stadium execution of American journalist
By Bill Vann
17 May 2002

Gunshots rang out once again in Santiago’s National Stadium May 14, nearly 30 years after the Chilean sports facility was turned into a center of torture and execution by a US-backed military junta that overthrew the elected government of President Salvador Allende.

This time the bullets were blanks, fired by court officials reenacting the execution of Charles Horman, a US citizen who was put to death in the stadium after his arrest by the military on September 18, 1973, just seven days after the CIA-orchestrated military coup.

Horman was one of an estimated 10,000 workers, students, political activists and others rounded up by the military regime of General Augusto Pinochet and jammed into the soccer stadium to be beaten, tortured and gunned down."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/may2002/horm-m17.shtml

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#392657 - 01/25/09 01:26 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
Whoremaster

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





It wasn't so much discredited but replaced by the Milton Friedman "Shock Doctrine" approach of the Corporation being the be-all and end-all of economic thought, regardless of the thousands of unionists, leftists, middle-class, etc. being "disappeared*" (i.e. executed, jailed, exiled, newly-homeless, etc.).






Gunker is trying to blame free market capitalism for socialism's failures. So typical.
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#392658 - 01/25/09 08:06 AM Re: big day for America haters!
NitneLiun Offline
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Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
Not only is he ignorant of economics, but also the Constitution. Tell me Gunker, exactly where is that Right to Happiness found in the U.S. Constitution?

By the way, the phrase, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is not found in the Constitution. It's found in the Declaration of Independence.

Guaranteed happiness and the pursuit of happiness are very different, anyway.
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#392659 - 01/25/09 08:29 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
Whoremaster

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
Yes, the intent is to provide 'equality of opportunity', not 'equality of outcomes' (which is socialist and must be maintained by threat of prison/force).
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#392660 - 01/25/09 08:52 AM Re: big day for America haters!
JRV Offline
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Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
Quote:


MediCAID IS welfare's medical component. MediCARE is the medical component of Social Security...you know, for the people who worked, and paid their taxes so the lazy could collect welfare and mediCAID.



So Medicare is the Madoff-type scheme?
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#392661 - 01/25/09 10:14 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Soopergrizz Offline
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Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 3724
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Quote:


So Medicare is the Madoff-type scheme?




JRV, FTW!
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#392662 - 01/25/09 12:33 PM Re: big day for America haters!
SexDJ Offline
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Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
Quote:

Quote:


MediCAID IS welfare's medical component. MediCARE is the medical component of Social Security...you know, for the people who worked, and paid their taxes so the lazy could collect welfare and mediCAID.



So Medicare is the Madoff-type scheme?



That would be the one!!

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#392663 - 01/25/09 05:43 PM Re: big day for America haters!
Ivor Biggun Offline
Kurt Lackwood's Fluffer

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 1176
Quote:

As someone who studied economics at the graduate level, I was under the impression that the Keynesian model was discredited decades ago.




It was only discredited in so much as it was misapplied. Keynesian deficit spending is the nuclear option to be used only when a sudden contraction in the money supply occurs, and threatens to cause a deflationary spiral. There hasn't been a proper case for it from the 1930s until now.

If, as some countries' governments have in the past, Keynesian spending is applied to a more ordinary recession scenario, it's just a recipe for high inflation and government debt. On the other hand, treating a major monetary contraction like just another cyclical recession would be an even more disasterous mistake.

I do believe now is the time for some Keynesian spending, but for it to work properly the money has to be put to productive use, and I'm not confident in the ability of lefty governments to do that.
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#392664 - 01/25/09 06:27 PM Re: big day for America haters!
Mark_J Offline
Pervert

Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 2058
Quote:

It was only discredited in so much as it was misapplied. Keynesian deficit spending is the nuclear option to be used only when a sudden contraction in the money supply occurs, and threatens to cause a deflationary spiral.




Good points. I'm finding myself cringing more often lately when I hear people talking about how great they think it is that certain things have gotten so "cheap" lately (due to the deflation we're already experiencing), and that it's supposed to be good news for all. Christ on a bike.

My mind always flashes to pictures of Indonesian coastline in the moments before their typhoon, where the tide had abruptly swept out and revealed bare wet sand all the way to the horizon - like a giant bath tub that had suddenly drained - and some people took it as their cue to run out and collect the flopping fish off the sand "can you believe all these fucking fish?!", wholly unaware the tide was mere moments from returning to re-occupy it's space, and with a vengeance.

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#392665 - 01/25/09 10:58 PM Re: big day for America haters!
NitneLiun Offline
Registered Sex Offender

Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
Good point, Ivor. The problem is that during our last period of deep deflation, the government applied the model and failed to produce anything close to a recovery. Average money supply (M1 &M2) in the 30s was twice as high as money supply in the 20s, yet that money did not find its way into credit markets or private investment. In 1939, FDR's Treasury Sec. even said that spending money had not worked and he had no idea what to do next. Perhaps he didn't have any ideas, but the Axis did.
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#392666 - 04/28/09 05:51 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
Whoremaster

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
We've reached the first 100 day mark. Happy anniversary to all the America haters out there!


Let's all party like it's 1917!






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#392667 - 04/28/09 11:52 AM Re: big day for America haters!
freestylah Offline
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Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
Coke, got a link to more of these fine posters?

Thanks
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#392668 - 04/29/09 12:30 AM Re: big day for America haters!
Claude Goddard Offline
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Registered: 06/16/07
Posts: 2512
Loc: Slumberland
Quote:

I've never met an economist who actually advocated the Keynesian approach.




Did you ever meet an economist who predicted the meltdown? No, because the dumb fuckers have never gotten anything right. It's called the dismal science for a reason.

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#392669 - 01/19/10 07:15 PM Re: big day for America haters!
Coke banned by Monkey Offline
Whoremaster

Registered: 06/22/07
Posts: 2656
Loc: Polekatz, Rte 43
Coakley loses! Happy 1 year anniversary Odumba!

He got elected by running as a tax cutter (lol- talk about audacity)) and falsely portrayed himself as a moderate. As Saul Alinsky said, adopt the language of your enemy.

Oh well, now people know the real him. He hid his true self from the country's dummies pretty well for someone raised by his commie grandparents to hate America.
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