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^ Holly, you also have the ability to double as the model, too.

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now thats my idea of multitasking

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You lost me after the first few lines. What's your point?

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If you are in the industry you just made his point.

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If you are in the industry you just made his point.

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Touche honky!

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289 scenes total this year.......46 were Naughty America. Somehow that seems like less than 30-40 percent, but I am no math major.

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Granted, not quite 20%, but a significant number when it comes down to the almighty dollar Mr. Clean. I know if I lost 20% of my income (which is probably 2/3 or 1/2 of what you make fucking whores), I'd probably have to sell some shit.

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This is more then just a shift from DVDs to the Internet. What has happened is a fundamental change of the market when it is no longer possible to simply sell collections of porn scenes for money. People can get all porn they want from the tube sites and other pirate sources for free.

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Crocodile is correct...in a piracy-free world, the internet would still take a chunk out of the DVD market simply because it offers various things that some consumers prefer.

It's instantaneous (no driving to the porn store or waiting for the postman to deliver your order) and there is no physical product to store/hide unless you choose to create one yourself by burning it onto disc. The efficiency of the internet business model also means that various way-out-there niches can be explored and capitalised upon, whereas it's a lot harder for everyone in the physical DVD production and distribution chain to take chances when they know they could be stuck with 2,000 copies of something they can't sell. Newer business models, such as those employed by sites like Clips4Sale, further serve to make micro-niche experimentation relatively risk free for all involved.

However, in the real world, piracy is clawing a chunk out of both markets, and thus DVD is on the receiving end of a double whammy from both legitimate and illegitimate competition. It's the proverbial one-two sucker punch that has put the physical medium/business model on the ropes, figuratively speaking.

I stand by my contention that porn is more popular than it has ever been, but the problem remains how to capitalise, or more appropriately monetize, upon this newfound ubiquity. As of now, the industry certainly hasn't got to grips with it yet.

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This is more then just a shift from DVDs to the Internet. What has happened is a fundamental change of the market when it is no longer possible to simply sell collections of porn scenes for money. People can get all porn they want from the tube sites and other pirate sources for free.

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Crocodile is correct...in a piracy-free world, the internet would still take a chunk out of the DVD market simply because it offers various things that some consumers prefer.

It's instantaneous (no driving to the porn store or waiting for the postman to deliver your order) and there is no physical product to store/hide unless you choose to create one yourself by burning it onto disc. The efficiency of the internet business model also means that various way-out-there niches can be explored and capitalised upon, whereas it's a lot harder for everyone in the physical DVD production and distribution chain to take chances when they know they could be stuck with 2,000 copies of something they can't sell. Newer business models, such as those employed by sites like Clips4Sale, further serve to make micro-niche experimentation relatively risk free for all involved.

However, in the real world, piracy is clawing a chunk out of both markets, and thus DVD is on the receiving end of a double whammy from both legitimate and illegitimate competition. It's the proverbial one-two sucker punch that has put the physical medium/business model on the ropes, figuratively speaking.

I stand by my contention that porn is more popular than it has ever been, but the problem remains how to capitalise, or more appropriately monetize, upon this newfound ubiquity. As of now, the industry certainly hasn't got to grips with it yet.

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I don't disagree with either of you, but after all these years i think - and this is just an opinion - that getting rid of piracy just isn't feasible.. It's all to easy even now to break DRM protection on content.

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And i do agree with your that porn is still as popular as ever. But i do believe that there is some inner thought required by the industry as a whole, especially for Porn producers. Actually making a physical product makes no sense these days. Whether its a combination of shame or laziness that keep people out of Porn shops is kind of moot at this point. Consumers - such as myself are staying away in droves.

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On the production side the actual people who make the porn we watch are going to come to a realization that box covers, award shows and the usual crap that they spend money on doesn't matter to your average perv. Personally i think it will hit production companies harder in the long more than the talent.

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While they're may be plenty of girls (and guys) willing to screw on camera the producers, if what i think is going to happen - does happen - . They will have to offer bigger incentive for the people involved to do it, ie. Producers aren't going to offer people burger flipping salaries for taking two dicks in your ass.

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Additionally they will likely have to take an honest interest in the talent and the talent will have to keep in mind that the better they work for the producers, the more jobs they might get- ergo more $$$

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All at the same time as offering a product that is attractive and cheap enough to have the average consumer to drop a few bucks to down load some porn. I alluded to this before but there will always be piracy, the trick is to entice enough people to actually plonk down their cash for a bit of slap-and-tickle (so to speak)

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The other thing that will likely have to happen is that the drama we see everyday will have to come under control and the idea that the porn business is in fact a business will have to prevail. Blow ups like Lucy Lee and Chasey Lain and the various drug infused disasters will not only be talked about , but an active effort made to really discourage an unprofessional behavior patter. Also the seemingly ongoing serious issues like Chico Wang will have to be stopped in their tracks, it's hard enough for some of the girls to do this work without asshats like the late Mr Wang running around with the tacit and sometimes open approval of the industry. The producers will have to act like business people and the pornsters will actually have to act less like Diva's and more like professionals. Which is not to say that some or many don't, but I certainly have the feeling that the drama we see here on this and other boards probably represents a minor percentage of what actually goes on.

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People have been wanting porn to go 'mainstream' for a long long time now. And perhaps the oncoming crash of the current porn system will help that along. Since the early 70's Porn has been seen on the 'edge', some people really loved it some people really hated, some people just took some enjoyment out of it. Many new cultural invocations which we're once cutting edge are considered everyday now, rock music being the one i can think of right off the top of my head, in the fifties it was scandalous, today it's hard to get by shocked by anything in the music industry. I think pornography is on that trail now, by the fact that it has become part of our everyday life whether we know it or not.

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By the way, try to do something about all the religious nuts down there, whether it's Scientology, Islam , Christianity or whatever, if you have kids have them look at any situation with a rational response as opposed to believing in a giant Space Daddy, trust me your country will be better for it.

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You dare to question Allah? Die, Infidel!

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All at the same time as offering a product that is attractive and cheap enough to have the average consumer to drop a few bucks to down load some porn. I alluded to this before but there will always be piracy, the trick is to entice enough people to actually plonk down their cash for a bit of slap-and-tickle (so to speak)

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The producers will have to act like business people and the pornsters will actually have to act less like Diva's and more like professionals. Which is not to say that some or many don't, but I certainly have the feeling that the drama we see here on this and other boards probably represents a minor percentage of what actually goes on.

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Very true...it's the same with home or car security as well. Ultimately, if they (thieves/burglars/pirates) want in, then they'll get in somehow. The trick is to make it as hard as possible so as to deter them to the extent that they move on to some other target. Whether this means going after uploaders, downloaders, the facilitators inbetween or all three remains to be seen, but doing something has to be better than doing nothing, AKA fiddling while San Fernando Valley burns.

To me it seems a question of resources, even now Apple is taking the DRM off of their products and producers of Movies and CD don't even bother these to to try to copyright their content for the simple reason is that withing a few days a new way burning through the latest DRM software. It's always possible to try to go after hosters , we all know about rapidshare etc etc. But i just wonder how much it would actually net in returns of financial income flow to the industry. When the music industry went after Kazaa it was initially very successful, and yet sharing sights are still there.

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I should point out that said 'action' needn't necessarily be limited strictly to the punitive type either...efforts could be made to reward those who pay for their product, such as a loyalty scheme, mail-in incentives, or anything that adds value to the package that you won't get if you download it illegally.

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Totally agree here. Using torrent sites and their brethren isn't for me. I like to have my computer secure and i don't like the idea of anyone having a look inside. Some people don't mind it but i would rather have easy and economically feasible access to the porn i want. Putting some added value into long time membership is a good place to start, it would have to be measured against cost benefit though

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Firstly, I'm not saying porn is as popular as ever...I'm saying it is more popular than ever. The problem is that a huge chunk of this newly-found audience seems to have a distinct problem with paying to watch porn, and ample opportunity to get it for free. Ergo, this bigger than ever audience doesn't equate to bigger than ever sales figures.

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Again agree, i don't have the exact numbers of the actual dollars that are generated by the industry so i hedged a little on the popularity of it. For people who have first hand access to the numbers i would bow to their knowledge. We hear about 'billions' , and i agree it probably is in that range. But at the same time the word 'pornography' covers a lot of ground and where this money is coming from and going to is a little hard to gauge.

As for paying for porn , I've never had an issue with it. I've got a membership or two and i switch them around. So for me at least the issue of being a non-payer is moot, but i do understand where you're coming from. But i have a real practical side, going after pirates etc etc is worth exploring but i think in the end it would become an unwinnable battle. To me the solution the problem is to make pron more accessible not less. Taking a 'ipods' approach may be the best way forward (not to be confused with the current “Iporn” business i wouldn't trust that company whatsoever – and it has nothing to with content)

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Boxcovers matter a lot more for feature producers, but that is an almost entirely different market in terms of audience aimed at (mostly couples) and methods of distribution (Cable, Softcore, as well as DVD)...and yes, these customers pay cash money rather than torrent it. Some people want the fancy packaging, and I am one of them.

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Fair enough, there may be still a market for actual physical porn on DVD or Blu-Ray, it isn't for me, but if some companies can produce and sell it with a decent profit margin I'm all for it. Part of the issue with DVD's right now is that not so long ago there were so many companies making so many DVD's that the market essentially became flooded. This caused some blow-black with DVD's being returned to the distributor who had already shelled out the cost of making them in the first place. In the long run i don't think porn on DVD has legs but i can see where you're coming from. But for me paying online and getting online is much better and easier/ One of the issues i have with DVD's as opposed to membership sites is that some on a certain DVD there may only be one girl or two that i might want to see, while not saying that any of the other Talent is bad. It's a question of individual sexuality for me. I would rather be able to go to one of my sights and pick and choose.

Again I'm not saying that DVD's are a bad idea, i just don't know how the cost/benefit ratio holds up in face of competition from porn membership sights

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As I have said previously in the 'Tube Sites' thread in the Web forum, I'd like to see a more meritocratic approach to porn salaries...if (for example) Jenna Haze sells 100 times as many downloads or disks as Katja Kassin, then I think it's only fair she get 100 times the money Katja Kassin gets, rather than a standard one-size-fits-all industry rate. The only way this will come about is by switching to a pay-per-clip system where there is no ambiguity, and individual sales and royalties can be easily tracked.

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Totally agree, the only thing i might add in line with my previous post of a symbiotic working relationship with the talent and producers is that the real numbers be available and transparent to both sides.

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I'm all for better working conditions and pay for the performers, as I believe this will in turn lead to a better calibre or quality of performer joining the industry. With sites like Clips4Sale and their ilk, there is a great opportunity for the performer to become the producer in a relatively risk-free environment. Sure, it will more than likely be amateurish crap, but people can overlook that if they're interested in the girl involved...plus a lot of so-called 'professional' porn is also amateurish crap, so the difference could be very minimal.

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Agree,.

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I'd like to see a producer offer quality content at dirt cheap prices just to see if the "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap" philosophy that benefits a lot of larger retailers could work in porn. It would probably require some sort of micropayment system attached to it, as the credit card companies just aren't interested below a certain amount.

The only drawback is that there are plenty of sites that offer super cheap 2-day trials, but they still get their content pirated, so I don't know if this is the answer.

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Micropayment may be the way that we are going, presumably if I'm right with porn moving into more the culture of north America it won't be so hard to attract quality talent.

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Again, I'd love to see the industry be more professional, but the truth is it lacks any form of coherent leadership. I'd like to see unified sales charts based on actual solid figures, and perhaps some sort of packaging review council that would stamp out (or serve to allay customer fears about) misleading sleeves. Companies that pull the 'On the box but not in the movie' scam are creating tomorrow's pirates, namely hitherto paying customers who are now once bitten, twice shy when it comes to spending money on porn again.

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You've got my vote. Porn producers and the talent still seem to be stuck in the mindset of what they're offering “new and exciting”. We have a culture on this continent of being supremely uptight about sex. This is kind of a double-edged sword for the porn industry in that it often sees itself as pushing the envelope of entertainment. Granted republican administration and conservative ones up here have added to that significantly by prosecuting average porn producers for- shocking as it is – making porn. So what we have is almost a schizophrenic idea or porn. The government tells us that it's bad, and on the surface we agree, but at the same time we want to see 'why' it's so bad, and the industry dutifully gives us what we want and then the circle begins. Because of this cycle (and others) some producers go a bit further (for a variety or reason – mostly money) and come to the attention of the 'authorities' . Max being the latest example

Max has been made a target not because what he was doing was 'wrong' in the legal sense (i think) but because he decided to take his content that pushed that envelope a little further than most porn producers do. As a result while he may present himself as a victim, in effect he was creating a situation that would inevitably lead him to being the easiest target, and now has had a chilling effect on the industry as a whole. The odd thing is that while he may or may not have thought of himself as a positive force for the industry, the reality now is that he has become a liability. There are likely people who know Max here and I'm curious as to whether he or others had actually thought this situation through, the farther you decide to go in terms of content, the farther and deeper you have to plan ahead for what could be a a very legal rough ride.

That's one aspect of the business, the other is for what of a lack of a better term I'll call 'mainstream porn' . There is an issue with presentation not matching up to the content. Most producers have a library of content that they would like to use but don't seem to have a vehicle for. So what sometimes happen what you see on the box is not what you see on the disc.


There might be a dual track system available , with content that you can't seem to use (for whatever reason) it might be better to offer both the DVD and online version of the same thing. Preferably on a scene by scene basis. That happens now sometimes but i think that if the porn producers would actually communicate with each other, their talent and most importantly the paying customer you would see less and less of this. When you have a situation where the customers feel ripped off it has a ripple effect – at least it should – all the way back to the producers. To my eyes it's a question of honesty, and perhaps the most vital aspect of that is transparency

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Totally agree...as I said: More popular than ever before. I'll be interested to see how Sasha Grey does in 'The Girlfriend Experience', but it's safe to say she's already putting together a nice little mainstream portfolio. It's rather hypocritical that Paris Hilton can suck cock on video and be mainstream, yet a porn chick is treated like some kind of pariah. Again, better quality performers can only help with porn's push, but you aren't going to attract them until you can seriously improve working conditions and earning potential...oh look, we're back to square one again!

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This goes back a bit to our obsession with the sex act. We want and don't want it at the same time. Or at least we want to be seen not wanting it , but have the ability to 'see it' hassle free. For the more repressed the wronger it seems, the better it is. What i think is required is for some people within the industry to actually go out and talk frankly about the industry, sex and our compulsion with it. Some do already of course but not nearly enough. We need more though. Sex can still be nasty if you like it nasty, but it shouldn't be something you should be afraid to admit.

When the talent feels like their appreciated not just by the fans who Fap to them, but the companies producing the porn, then i think talent involved wouldn't be as liable to get into situations that reflect badly on them and the industry as a whole.

Hopefully if I'm right with coming porn crises and what were talking about comes about, we can look at porn in a different light.

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You dare to question Allah? Die, Infidel!

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Osama can toss my salad, not that there is anything wrong with that