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#371509 - 10/29/08 04:10 PM
Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Everyone having heard all of Obama's double talk, time and time again, about how he's not really raising taxes on small businesses because 98% of them don't pay in the higher tax brackets he wants to jack taxes up on. I found a Wall Street Journal article about who really pays those taxes: Quote:
The Small Business Administration says small business wrote the paychecks for up to 80% of new jobs in 2005
Quote:
An analysis by the Senate Finance Committee found that of the filers in the highest two tax brackets, three out of four are small business owners.
So, yeah. If you stand up there and lump every hobby an American has declared as a small business in with the legitimate and successful ones, it's easy to come up with a number like 98% and make it look like small business doesn't matter.
The reason why they're talking about the top 2 brackets in that quote is because they're talking about Obama's oft decried slogan that under $250K, you're taxes don't go up. They call that double talk too:
Quote:
any moderately successful business with an income above as little as $165,000 a year could face a higher tax liability
I'm not digging into the tax codes of all that stuff to really come up with an opinion myself though. Sounds like a terribly depressing way to waste a couple of days.
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#371512 - 10/30/08 10:25 AM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Pervert
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 2056
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Because America needs Obama to wake up.
_________________________
"If you keep making fun of me, I might just get pissed and not post on here anymore. Start taking me seriously. I'm a student now" Fatja
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#371513 - 10/30/08 03:51 PM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 4856
Loc: The 4th International
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northrop wrote: Quote:
Why? Because you want him to make the recession that much more complicated by raising taxes on the people who create jobs?
Who are, in your opinion, the people who create jobs? And in what way are they going to be taxed by an Obama-led government?
_________________________
The only thing you got that I want, is your suffering.
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#371514 - 10/30/08 04:11 PM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
Because America needs Obama to wake up.
It's the eloquent speeches that wake them up? That's what most people who are voting for Obama seem to say. They like how tall, dark, handsome, and pleasant to wake up to he is. Dak'kon, have you been having homosexual fantasies again?
Quote:
Who are, in your opinion, the people who create jobs? And in what way are they going to be taxed by an Obama-led government?
I'll try to rephrase a little.
You've heard Obama say, over and over and over, how families making less than $250K/year will not see their tax bill raised? When you decipher what he's really saying, what he means is that he's raising the rates on the two top income tax brackets. Scroll up to the first post and see who it is that pays those higher taxes and who it is that creates the jobs.
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#371515 - 10/30/08 04:29 PM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Pervert
Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 2056
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I'm conservative. I think that also answers the rest of your stupid assumptions.
_________________________
"If you keep making fun of me, I might just get pissed and not post on here anymore. Start taking me seriously. I'm a student now" Fatja
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#371517 - 10/31/08 09:15 AM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
You mean these guys? 
I see nothing in that article indicating fat cat Wall Street traders are the bulk of the people paying the taxes Obama wants to jack up.
Looking at the WSJ article, if that's who you think Obama is targetting with his tax hikes, he's doing a hell of a crummy job.
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#371519 - 10/31/08 02:30 PM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
ok i misunderstood you. We're 100% agreed on that. But don't look for anything better from McCain, not that I assume you do.
Hell yeah I would expect better from McCain. He's not planning any tax hikes during a recession whatsoever.
And, a ridiculous idea he would have, with a Democratic Congress, fat fucking chance getting it through.
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#371520 - 10/31/08 10:54 PM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
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Quote:
Who are, in your opinion, the people who create jobs?
The wage-earning consumers, silly!
Supply and demand.
If the proletariat has some scratch, they will evidence a need to buy shit, and thus, the bourgeoisie will respond accordingly to create the shit the proles wanna buy, and the aristocrats will profit by bankrolling the bourgeoisie!
Voting down an increase in the minimum wage from 1994-2006, giving tax cuts to the aristocrats, and turning a blind eye to economic protectionism since 1980 WAS NOT COOL, shortsighted, and helped build our debt from $1 T to $10 T.
If the proles' wages are artificially suppressed by union-busting and the elimination of the Declaration of Independence's inalienable right to the "pursuit of happiness" (e.g. incredible cost of for-profit health care, decreased "drown in a bathtube" taxes leading to diminished public education, infrastructure, a civilized society's "safety net", etc.), this great country is in bad shape, and apposite as to the American founder's intention of:
"Egalitarianism (derived from the French word égal, meaning equal) is a political doctrine that holds that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights."
_________________________
"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.
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#371521 - 11/01/08 01:18 AM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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Quote:
If the proletariat has some scratch, they will evidence a need to buy shit, and thus, the proletariat will respond accordingly to create the shit the proles wanna buy, and the aristocrats will profit by bankrolling the bourgeoisie!
For a consumer-oriented economy like the US that's right, but looked closely:
In order for the proletariat to buy shit, the bourgeoisie must first make shit for them to buy. The proletariat does not buy empty shelf space: shit must be there before they'll spend their scratch.
Making shit is actually pretty expensive. The bourgeoisie must build a factory, buy raw materials, pay proletariat to transform raw material into shit, pay a shipper to ship it to retailers and often pay much of the retailer's costs or even finance the retailer's inventory. All that, several months before being paid. If an aristocrats bankrolls the bourgeoisie then not only is it much more likely to happen at all, but growth is at a far faster pace than if the bourgeoisie used retained earnings (savings). Important: rapid growth means many more employed proletariat much sooner, who will then have more scratch to buy shit.
(in other words, consumers create demand but do not finance production)
Without aristocrats bankrolling the bourgeoisie it might take ten times as long for the bourgeoisie to employ the same number of proletariat, and without the bourgeoisie the proletariat never get hired at all.
Raising taxes in a recession will lengthen the recovery no matter where the taxes are taken out because the growth engine in the economy depends on activity at all levels. Raising taxes on aristocrats and lowering them on the proletariat may sound nice but it slows the pace of hiring and results in less proletariat with jobs. If anything carefully targeted tax cuts or deductions are the best thing to do: give the aristocrats tax deductions for bankrolling bourgeoisie (who also get deductions) for employing a lot of proletariat. Congress isn't nimble enough to do that precisely but that's the idea.
(in other words the unemployed don't care about tax cuts or increases! Anything that gets them hired is a good thing, and anything that delays a job is bad thing, and if tax policy doesn't focus on getting them hired they get hurt)
This is fairly standard Keynesian economics, not conservative dogma, although Keynes believed that in some rare cases there were *too few* aristocrats and bourgeoisie able to jumpstart the recovery process and that in such cases the government should directly act as an aristocrat or the bourgeoisie to get things moving towards full employment.
The time to raise taxes is as at the top of the cycle when employment is in good shape and a few lost jobs won't hurt.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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#371522 - 11/01/08 11:36 AM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
If the proletariat has some scratch, they will evidence a need to buy shit, and thus, the proletariat will respond accordingly to create the shit the proles wanna buy, and the aristocrats will profit by bankrolling the bourgeoisie!
You mean the "bourgesie" will respond accordingly? Seems you're taking a little for granted how obedient they are. Most of them already got money. What do they care? They're just gonna automatically "respond accordingly"?
Quote:
Raising taxes on aristocrats and lowering them on the proletariat may sound nice but it slows the pace of hiring and results in less proletariat with jobs.
That's exactly why I'm ticked. I'd have no problem with shifting more of the tax burden to higher tax brackets (bourgeoisie/aristocrats, but I feel stupid using those terms). Just not during recession. Just let the job creators keep their money so they can go out and invest and create jobs now. You send more of their money via taxes down to lower income brackets, and they have to figure out how to go gather more of this money from all those people. Some of them will decide not to, etc. It justs takes longer to get out of the recession if you raise their taxes now.
Quote:
The time to raise taxes is as at the top of the cycle when employment is in good shape and a few lost jobs won't hurt.
Obama knows this good and damn well. He just realizes his agenda of government redistribution of wealth has a limited time frame for implementation. The terrorists do another stunt on the homeland, and in 2010 he's not gonna have as much power in Congress or with the masses as he does now. He's gotta get the ball started rolling now.
That's a little conspiracist, but not too far fetched I think. With his eloquence and double talk, Obama's running as center left. But, his actual record, what he's actually done, he's the most liberal Senator we got.
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#371524 - 11/01/08 01:14 PM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Quote:
But, his actual record, what he's actually done, he's the most liberal Senator we got.
No. That would be Feingold of Wisconsin.
I would nominate Gunker's hero Bernie Sanders, but Fatman's right in principle, as one actually needs to have a record before one can be considered "the most" anything.
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#371525 - 11/01/08 07:36 PM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 1011
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Quote:
No. That would be Feingold of Wisconsin.
The National Journal ranked him most liberal back in January, before he became the Democratic nominee. I remember there were issues about that ranking, but there always are.
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#371526 - 11/01/08 07:48 PM
Re: Raising Taxes During a Recession
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
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"Kerry rated most liberal member of Senate By Richard E. Cohen National Journal February 27, 2004" http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0204/022704nj1.htm"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."-Ralph Waldo Emerson (voted most liberal thinker of the 19th century by the National Journal.)
_________________________
"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.
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