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#361375 - 09/19/08 10:10 PM
Stocks Basically Flat After MASSIVE GOV’T TAKEOVER
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
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Yaaayyy! USA! USA! USA! "Well, that was a fun week in finance news. So what did the markets get, after the U.S. government decided to end market capitalism and become the Soviet Bank of Soviet America? Stocks ended the week flat, that’s what. Monday morning, the Dow opened at 11,421. Today, after this unprecedented nationalization of AIG and promises of some “We Buy Your Crap” market run by the Fed, the DJIA closed at 11,388. (The S&P 500 was about the same, starting the week at 1,252 and ending at 1,256.) A half-trillion in new U.S. debt just doesn’t buy what it used to!" http://wonkette.com/402901/stocks-basically-flat-after-massive-govt-takeover-of-everything 
_________________________
"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.
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#361376 - 09/19/08 10:36 PM
Re: Stocks Basically Flat After MASSIVE GOV’T TAKE
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
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#361377 - 09/20/08 03:31 PM
So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I'm no expert, and I have no idea if the intervention of the last few days is going to do any good. But Gunker, let me ask you this:
How would YOU have fixed the problem?
Don't tell me "Hope."
Don't tell me "change."
Don't tell me "Yes we can."
Don't tell me you and Barack wouldn't have gotten us into this mess in the first place. We all know which fuckheads are to blame...
But this is not the moment for recriminations. It's a moment for solutions.
What are yours?
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#361379 - 09/20/08 06:49 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
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Too late to unsticky this mess.
Since capitalism is inherently amoral, regulations and a more progressive tax system are needed to clumsily attempt to provide some moral framework.
The zany deregulated free market/trade "greed is good" Milton Friedman/Ayn Rand nonsense isn't working (except for the CEO-types, who, three decades ago earned 30-40 times the income of ordinary workers, and now, (as of 2007), earn 344 times the income of ordinary workers).
Not talking about full-on socialism, but the swinging pendulum has gone too far to the right since 1980, and I think pushing it back a little is warranted.
_________________________
"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.
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#361380 - 09/20/08 07:29 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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That's very nice.
But you haven't said what you'd DO.
What sort of regulations?
Define "progressive" tax code.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that's mainly because you haven't actually suggested anything. Still, it's better than belaborator's usual "hahahaha  "
I will tell you that there has never been, nor will there ever be, a "moral" economic system or tax code.
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#361381 - 09/20/08 07:51 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Not talking about full-on socialism...
Really???
Quote:
that "Work Hard; Be Happy!" bumper sticker smacks of Fascism...
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#361382 - 09/20/08 08:14 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
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Enforce Sherman Anti-Trust Act (if it's too big to fail, it's too big). Reinstate Glass-Steagall. Thanks Phil Gramm. Gradually use tariffs to encourage regrowth of an American manufacturing base. A bad sign of this is that our military relies upon Chinese-made components. This may also require a gradual rebirth of trade unions and a concordant increase of the middle class. Increase corporate tax and/or fine on those who (1) employ illegal immigrants (2) outsource jobs (3) relocate headquarters outside of the U.S. (e.g. Halliburton). Now, for the progressive tax rates, see this site: http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.phpOkay then. Immediately go back to a Clinton-era tax rate on high-income (OMG 39.6% instead of 35%!), and also deal with the grossly-overcompensated (e.g. CEOs) by indexing their compensation to that of the average employee of their company, and once that compensation exceeds x amount, a higher tax rate kicks in on that amount over the standard. For example, CEO of Mini-Mart/Targeting Systems (tm), whose average employee earns $30,000 year, will be taxed at a high rate (let's say 50%) on any income (including stock options, deferred compensation, financial legerdemain, etc.) over, let's say 50x that of his employees. In this case, Mini Mart's CEO's income over $1,500,000 will be taxed at 50%. Mini-Mart CEO will not be starving nor disincentivized [sic?] by this, and may even consider raising the average pay of his employees to increase his non-higher taxed compensation. Initiate a FDR-style reinvestment in American infrastructure program. There's plenty of crumbling bridges, environmental clean-up sites, mass transit opportunities, etc. It's a win-win when federal funds are used to both make jobs and improve the country. Deprivatize certain functions that are costing far too much, especially the military where Halliburton, Talon, Blackwater, etc. are being paid 3x as much to do some of the same functions that the military used to do, and which encouraged people to join the military to learn those same marketable functions.
_________________________
"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.
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#361384 - 09/20/08 09:53 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Enforce Sherman Anti-Trust Act (if it's too big to fail, it's too big).
Reinstate Glass-Steagall. Thanks Phil Gramm.
Gradually use tariffs to encourage regrowth of an American manufacturing base. A bad sign of this is that our military relies upon Chinese-made components. This may also require a gradual rebirth of trade unions and a concordant increase of the middle class.
Increase corporate tax and/or fine on those who (1) employ illegal immigrants (2) outsource jobs (3) relocate headquarters outside of the U.S. (e.g. Halliburton).
Now, for the progressive tax rates, see this site:
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php
Okay then. Immediately go back to a Clinton-era tax rate on high-income (OMG 39.6% instead of 35%!), and also deal with the grossly-overcompensated (e.g. CEOs) by indexing their compensation to that of the average employee of their company, and once that compensation exceeds x amount, a higher tax rate kicks in on that amount over the standard.
For example, CEO of Mini-Mart/Targeting Systems (tm), whose average employee earns $30,000 year, will be taxed at a high rate (let's say 50%) on any income (including stock options, deferred compensation, financial legerdemain, etc.) over, let's say 50x that of his employees. In this case, Mini Mart's CEO's income over $1,500,000 will be taxed at 50%. Mini-Mart CEO will not be starving nor disincentivized [sic?] by this, and may even consider raising the average pay of his employees to increase his non-higher taxed compensation.
Initiate a FDR-style reinvestment in American infrastructure program. There's plenty of crumbling bridges, environmental clean-up sites, mass transit opportunities, etc. It's a win-win when federal funds are used to both make jobs and improve the country.
Deprivatize certain functions that are costing far too much, especially the military where Halliburton, Talon, Blackwater, etc. are being paid 3x as much to do some of the same functions that the military used to do, and which encouraged people to join the military to learn those same marketable functions.
Gunker, this may come as a shock, but I actually agree with much of this, particularly with the infrastructure bit.
I just don't think Obama's going to pull any of it off.
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#361385 - 09/20/08 10:27 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 1059
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If this plan were put forward by a Democrat it would be called socialism. Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter, et al. would be screaming from the hills about how the socialist democrats were trying to destroy capitalism in the US.
But since it's a Republican it's just a distasteful solution.
So socializing debt is Republican, but socializing medicine is un-american?
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Honestly, I don't know...I'm torn. We haven't talked since AVN (other than the hearing in February)- Eric on Bree Olson
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#361386 - 09/20/08 10:57 PM
Re: Stocks Basically Flat After MASSIVE GOV’T TAKE
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 559
Loc: Give 'em rope
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Why is the bottom rung of society are told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and any help if filthy socialism but the wealthiest scum that run their companies into the ground and take everyone else with them because of their own incompetence, shortsightedness and unquenchable greed get billion dollar bailouts?
Plutocracy.
Edited by Ceramic God Product (09/20/08 10:57 PM)
_________________________
Sandblasted faces, no mouths to scream. Needless object always scratching. This breach in heaven irised shut. It scorns the land without even ghosts
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#361387 - 09/20/08 11:02 PM
Re: Stocks Basically Flat After MASSIVE GOV’T TAKE
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 559
Loc: Give 'em rope
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Bipartisan Buttfuck
Bipartisan Dictatorship
Devising the economic plan
Benefit the Greedy
Mutually excluding the working man
_________________________
Sandblasted faces, no mouths to scream. Needless object always scratching. This breach in heaven irised shut. It scorns the land without even ghosts
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#361388 - 09/20/08 11:47 PM
Re: Stocks Basically Flat After MASSIVE GOV’T TAKE
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Pervert
Registered: 08/05/05
Posts: 2116
Loc: Faber College
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Unless the executives who thought all the tricky shit they were doing was a good idea are fired with only two weeks pay and publicly humiliated no one is going to learn anything from all this.
_________________________
It was a wonderful community with some very enjoyable members. But the vast majority were like German housewives circa 1943 prenteding that horrib;le smell wafting through their open windowsd was just the neighbors having a cookout..--Windsock
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#361389 - 09/21/08 01:05 PM
Re: Stocks Basically Flat After MASSIVE GOV’T TAKEOVER
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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#361390 - 09/21/08 05:24 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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Quote:
Enforce Sherman Anti-Trust Act (if it's too big to fail, it's too big).
This much is a good idea, especially for the GSEs.
Quote:
Reinstate Glass-Steagall. Thanks Phil Gramm.
Uh, the failures have been in the investment banks, not the commercial bank side covered by G-S. Whatever the merits of G-S, that's not the problem here.
Quote:
Gradually use tariffs to encourage regrowth of an American manufacturing base.
"Reinstate Smoot-Hawley"? Herbert Hoover sends his love...
Quote:
Immediately go back to a Clinton-era tax rate on high-income (OMG 39.6% instead of 35%!),
What good can that possibly do? Four and a half points across so small a minority will accomplish nothing other than reduce the amount that minority has to invest.
Quote:
and also deal with the grossly-overcompensated (e.g. CEOs) by indexing their compensation to that of the average employee of their company, and once that compensation exceeds x amount, a higher tax rate kicks in on that amount over the standard.
Won't work because *they* *don't* *care* what that tax rate is. They just take more to cover it (a lot of executives taxes are actually paid by the corporation by contract - they get paid a predetermined amount regardless of taxes).
Quote:
and may even consider raising the average pay of his employees to increase his non-higher taxed compensation.
No, the best response is to just outsource everyone. Government policy has long discouraged hiring anyone so the best answer is to capitulate to that.
There is also a huge difference in the skill level required by employees at different companies.' Most manufacturing firms require little skill for most screwdriver-wielders, but a boutique engineering firm or equivalents in the financial or medical sector might have few people paid under $100k. Who wants to run a manufacturing firm that hires lots of workers if you get paid 20% as much as a guy who runs a surgical firm?
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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#361391 - 09/21/08 06:27 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
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http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0908/Sanders_comes_out_against_Bush_bailout_plan.html"[Senator Bernie] Sanders is proposing a five-year surtax of 10 percent on single Americans making more than $500,000 a year, or couples making $1 million annually, to help pay for the bailout. Sanders said such a tax would yield $300 billion. Sanders also wants much tighter regulation of Wall Street, as well as the dismantling of huge corporations that are "too big to fail." “If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist,” Sanders said." ============== http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D93AMMB00.htm""This could go a long way toward solving these problems," said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com, who has written a book on the mortgage meltdown. And the final cost to the government? No one knows for sure, but Zandi said if the experience with cleaning up all the assets left over from the savings and loan mess is any guide, it should be less than the $700 billion that the administration is seeking. In the S&L crisis, the government was able to recoup about two-thirds of its initial costs when it sold the assets it had obtained from the failed S&Ls." 
_________________________
"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.
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#361392 - 09/21/08 06:34 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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@
Porn Jesus
Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 9958
Loc: fortified
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Heh.. Gunker meets Bernie.
Nice.
_________________________
i just lock, load, and regret. - jamesn
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#361393 - 09/21/08 07:01 PM
Re: So, Gunker: What's The Answer?
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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Quote:
"[Senator Bernie] Sanders is proposing a five-year surtax of 10 percent on single Americans making more than $500,000 a year, or couples making $1 million annually, to help pay for the bailout. Sanders said such a tax would yield $300 billion.
Nonsense. $300,000,000,000? Just how many people does he think there are making over a half million a year?
And I can tell you exactly how many there would be if he got his way: 0. They would simple choose to defer realizing incoming for a few years.
Quote:
Sanders also wants much tighter regulation of Wall Street, as well as the dismantling of huge corporations that are "too big to fail."
“If a company is too big to fail, it is too big to exist,” Sanders said."
More credible people have said essentially the same thing, but the hard part nobody talks about is deciding how big is too big.
It's never been obvious before: nobody imagined Bear-Stearns was too big until a few days before they failed. Moreover, forcing them to be too small gives you a competitive disadvantage internationally. It's easy and safe to break up the GSEs but nobody pretends to know jusy how big too big is for an investment bank.
And we're certainly going to have to have regulation of capital ratios and such on Wall Street. The Smart Money has proven emphatically to the tune off $700B that it isn't so smart after all.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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