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#244106 - 05/13/07 07:29 PM
Porn Economics Part 3
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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I've been trying to get a handle on the economics in the adult industry for a couple of months. Conky recently directed me to the April AVN which had a cover story titled Ri$ing Talent Rate$ that lays the dirty numbers out in detail. AVN looks at a number of factors to explain why despite the falling of DVD sales why the talent rates are rising, including increasingly more extreme acts demanded of performers and the rise of the "super pimp" as AVN terms agents like Derek Hay of LA Direct. The article also credits new money from internet sites as a factor in rising rates. However, there's no mention of the fact that many girls now also have the escort option. The fact is there's a new breed of fan that is stepping behind the camera of their own POV, except without the camera. The bottom line on rates is as follow as far as generalities go: BJ $450 G/G Vag $500 G/G Anal $900 B/G VAG $1,000 B/G Anal $1,200 DP $1,400 Contract (Subject to Various Arrangements) $100,000- $150,000 per year (Up from $60,000.00 mid 90's) Guys $800-$1000 The rate for the guys seems like a bit high. But the article goes into great detail over the importance of a sure thing male performer as a female can be replaced on short notice. But if the guy can't get it up, then you may not be able to find a replacement and an entire shoot day may be lost. Thus, there's apparently a rise of the $1,000 per scene male performer who can ensure a shoot will happen. However, there are just a few that fall in this category. But how credible are these figures. Says Ashley Blue 'Never believe a prostitute when she says she makes a certain amount per hour." Lamented Ava Rose "On my first scene I got gypped. I got paid $350 to do a B/G." Rose now makes $3,000 per scene under her contract for Adam and Eve. (Frankly that doesn't seem like a lot, especially if she's only doing a minimal amount of scenes under the contract.) The article really doesn't talk much about the hold out strategy where performers hold off on certain acts in order to build interest to get a certain fee. And what do the "super pimps" get? 10-20% from the performer and another $100 from the production company. Like any good pimp knows, if you have a lot of girls working the streets you make more money. so one has to wonder whether certain agents have exclusive relationships with producers, so what would cost one producer $1,000, might cost a producer exclusively using an agency less. If anything, it doesn't seem like the "super pimps" are raising the rates on the ceiling as much as they are raising the floor. "Anyone reading this story should become a pimp. I think they should be teaching it in school. I think they are already teaching it at Chatsworth High" said producer Jim Powers. Some blame Jules Jordan for the rising talent rates for paying exorbitant rates. "This really isn't a team sport" responded Jordan. The bottom line is its getting better to be a whore and more expensive to make adult content.
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"This thing is ready to do damage!"
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#244107 - 05/14/07 02:15 AM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Whoremaster
Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 2710
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Given that the producer holds the rights to the product in perpetuity, I think rates are pretty good. If they can't turn a profit off of it, maybe they are in the wrong business? Quality product has 'legs', i.e. it keeps selling...this is why Jules makes so much money, because his 'catalogue' older titles still continue to sell well. It's the same deal with big budget features too. I would imagine people who shoot dull, uninspired, low-rent cookie-cutter gonzo on a beige couch are the ones bitching about Mr. Jordan getting the top girls to raise their levels for a premium price (which is out of Billy Bob Gonzo's financial reach). You want to see (current flavour of the month) girl X doing (previously unfilmed) sexual act z? Only from Jules Jordan. Want to see Sunny Leone doing hardcore? Only from Vivid. You want to see a bog standard, instantly forgettable and utterly nondescript gonzo scene? Take your pick...  Let me just say that I don't think it's a coincidence that the companies that tend to spend more (on making a quality finished product) also tend to earn more as well. Higher rates should also (theoretically) lead to better talent. If the average girl is going to be charging $1000, then she had better be worth $1000, and judging by some of the 'girls' at some of the 'talent' agencies, there are a lot who fall some way short...  At the end of the day, the market will bear what it can afford and no more.
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#244108 - 05/14/07 06:32 AM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 459
Loc: California
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Moxie The rates you listed are about 10% higher than I am aware of. However, for the most part, you are right on with your estimates. For the DVD industry to survive you have to contemplate several other factors. The internet/VOD aspect as been cannabalizing DVD sales. Why buy a DVD of 5 scenes for $19.95 or even $29.95 when you can buy a website membership such as Bang Bros for the same price and literally get 100s of scenes or join HotMovies and pay .08 by the minute. I think gonzo will be an exclusive internet genre and features will taking up much more self space in the adult stores in the coming years. I also think there will be forces increasing the rates of the top notch performers, those with the ability to act and have sex on camera. In the inverse, those performers that can only do gonzo, their rates will decline but they will actually get more work. From some of the mainstream actresses Ive talked to it appears we might be on the verge of an influx of talent who can act first and have sex on camera second, but their rates will be much higher, if not mean points on the backend. Thats when adult will really "cross-over." We are obviously already seeing it with the celebrity sex tapes. Its just a matter of time until more B level actresses who are tired of making $50,000 a year trying to be a star give up and cross over to make $500,000 a year. Michael PrimeTimeUncensored.com
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#244110 - 05/14/07 10:00 AM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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Another way to look at it is to ask what the incremental cost of using better talent is.
If you're shooting an anal gonzo flick how much more does it cost to hire Kelly Wells instead of some newbie who thinks that "Enema" is the name of a rapper? How much money is really saved going barrel-bottom-fishing for performers?
In any case the crisis in porn isn't the performers but rather that near-total lack of directing talent. You've got companies trying to use their stockroom packing guys or their webmasters as directors, guys who feel a real sense of accomplishment at keeping the camera in-focus...
PS. I have always believed that the "shot out" phenomenon was less about the consumers being tired of a performer and more about studios having no choice since the directors can't do anything different.
Nearly all porn directors are at best one-trick ponies, shooting the same scene over and over, release after release, with the variation between "Blown Out Butts 37" and "Blown Out Butts 38" being the talent used - the director doesn't know how to shoot anything different, and so the performers must be changed to get any variation in the scenes beyond sofa color.
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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#244111 - 05/14/07 12:43 PM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 4203
Loc: Bakersfield Plumbing Supplies ...
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There are several interesting elements at play here. Number one, if you want to make money in porn, you either shoot premium content with quality performers, locations and make up talent, or you carve out a unique niche. Jules fills the first market, Jeff fills the second.
If you're not aiming for either of those two targets, then you're making subsistence porn and earning < six bucks a unit wholesale.
Re-orders are the lifeblood, no doubt, and like DanG says, quality product has legs. Once we really start getting into IPTV and VoD as the consumers' first choice for buying, and ditch pressing, packaging, wholesale and retail cuts, it'll be really interesting to see just how the market reacts and what sort of content sells.
JRV, I'm with you on the directing talent front, and I'd go further than that. I was re-reading Shane Bugbee's Club Satan thread the other day and he states in there that he made the film 'for himself'. We're seeing way too much of that today--producers who shoot what they'd want to see instead of what the market demands.
_________________________
I also am subcribe to postal pornography - CAOH
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#244112 - 05/14/07 01:18 PM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Whoremaster
Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 2710
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Quote:
I think gonzo will be an exclusive internet genre and features will taking up much more self space in the adult stores in the coming years.
I think you're bang on the money here...because of the non-linear nature of gonzo, it's perfectly suited to VOD/internet methodologies. Gonzo is fast food porn (and I don't mean that in a derogatory manner) whereas plot-driven features are the three course meal at a fancy restaurant.
Quote:
I also think there will be forces increasing the rates of the top notch performers, those with the ability to act and have sex on camera. In the inverse, those performers that can only do gonzo, their rates will decline but they will actually get more work.
From some of the mainstream actresses Ive talked to it appears we might be on the verge of an influx of talent who can act first and have sex on camera second, but their rates will be much higher, if not mean points on the backend.
Thats when adult will really "cross-over." We are obviously already seeing it with the celebrity sex tapes. Its just a matter of time until more B level actresses who are tired of making $50,000 a year trying to be a star give up and cross over to make $500,000 a year.
Interesting theory...the definition of celebrity has become less concrete in the wake of all of these crappy reality shows. Warhol's most famous prediction is evidently coming true...the more celebrity sex tapes that come out, the more the line between porn and mainstream becomes a little blurred, as is also the case with some of the 'arthouse' movies which feature explicit sexual content (9 Songs, Destricted, All About Anna etc.).
I think the other thing the industry needs to look at (asides from the points raised in this thread) is the problem of piracy. Producers need to come together, chip in and set up some sort of anti-piracy watchdog to protect their interests, otherwise the problem is just going to keep getting worse.
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#244114 - 05/14/07 04:06 PM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 3812
Loc: Neither here, nor there.
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Quote:
Quote:
I think you're bang on the money here...because of the non-linear nature of gonzo, it's perfectly suited to VOD/internet methodologies. Gonzo is fast food porn (and I don't mean that in a derogatory manner) whereas plot-driven features are the three course meal at a fancy restaurant.
This sounds to me like a great way to separate the market. Filthy degrading gonzo for solo male stroke viewing via PC, features bought by couples in upscale adult stores--they'll have to change their business model as the industry changes around them, or become extinct.
I totally agree. The VoD market, and customer is all about instant gratification. They know what they like to see, and they want to see it now... not when the dvd comes in the mail, or when they decide to make a trip to the adult mart. Joe VoD Customer wants to watch a few cream pies, or DPs, get his rocks off, and get on with his day. Features just don't fit this bill. I mean, don't get me wrong, features sell on VoD too, just not like gonzo does, and will continue to do.
_________________________
"You know this is XXXPornTalk.com right? You sound like an ADT person. I want to poop on you." -Malice
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#244115 - 05/14/07 05:43 PM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Whoremaster
Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 2710
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Quote:
I totally agree. The VoD market, and customer is all about instant gratification. They know what they like to see, and they want to see it now... not when the dvd comes in the mail, or when they decide to make a trip to the adult mart. Joe VoD Customer wants to watch a few cream pies, or DPs, get his rocks off, and get on with his day. Features just don't fit this bill. I mean, don't get me wrong, features sell on VoD too, just not like gonzo does, and will continue to do.
Exactly...gonzo has the advantage of being niche-specific too, i.e. the entire movie will be nothing but interracial anal creampie scenes (or whatever the theme is), whereas features are normally a bit of a mixed bag, maybe a b/g scene here and a g/g scene there, a b/g/g and a blowjob or solo scene...often the plot will define what sort of sex acts there are, whereas with a gonzo, the specific sex act/niche is the entire raison d'etre.
On the other hand, whilst you can shoot a softcore version of a feature and have a completely saleable product for a different/less restricted market (Digital Playground's R-rated version of 'Pirates', for example), you can't shoot a softcore version of 'Cumfart Coctails' or an ATM/Double Anal themed flick, so Gonzo can't penetrate the same markets a plot-driven feature can.
It's apples and oranges, but I do think there is a ring of truth about Pornlaw's prediction regarding the divergent paths of the two genres. Only time will tell...
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#244116 - 05/15/07 12:13 AM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Rob Black's Crack Pipe
Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 72
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Quote:
Quote:
On the other hand, whilst you can shoot a softcore version of a feature and have a completely saleable product for a different/less restricted market (Digital Playground's R-rated version of 'Pirates', for example), you can't shoot a softcore version of 'Cumfart Coctails' or an ATM/Double Anal themed flick, so Gonzo can't penetrate the same markets a plot-driven feature can.
It's apples and oranges, but I do think there is a ring of truth about Pornlaw's prediction regarding the divergent paths of the two genres. Only time will tell...
kind of off topic, but i was just wondering this tonight: what kind of rates do girls get for doing skinemax softcore stuff? the acting isn't any better than any vivid feature, and i recognize most of the girls from hardcore. Is everything on skinemax these days just a softcore re-cut of a hardcore flick, or are they their own entity, and if so what do the girls get/ how much do the producers make relative to hardcore?
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#244117 - 05/15/07 03:52 AM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Whoremaster
Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 2710
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Quote:
kind of off topic, but i was just wondering this tonight: what kind of rates do girls get for doing skinemax softcore stuff? the acting isn't any better than any vivid feature, and i recognize most of the girls from hardcore. Is everything on skinemax these days just a softcore re-cut of a hardcore flick, or are they their own entity, and if so what do the girls get/ how much do the producers make relative to hardcore?
Robert Lombard would be the man to ask...he seems to be the de facto gatekeeper between porn valley and the world of softcore/skinemax.
Plenty of companies shoot softcore only and make a damned good business out of it too...Seduction Cinema, for example, who put out all those movies with the willowy beauty Misty Mundae in them, have got quite a following.
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#244121 - 05/15/07 10:43 AM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Whoremaster
Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 2710
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Quote:
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For the DVD industry to survive you have to contemplate several other factors. The internet/VOD aspect as been cannabalizing DVD sales. Why buy a DVD of 5 scenes for $19.95 or even $29.95 when you can buy a website membership such as Bang Bros for the same price and literally get 100s of scenes or join HotMovies and pay .08 by the minute.
VOD may be canabalizing DVD sales, but from my own personal experience, customers are spending much more on VOD. Before VOD I would buy 4 or 5 DVD's a year due to various factors such as not wanting adult material in the house. I was also very particular about what I would buy. I look at my gamelink account and it shows 600 movies since 2001. Thats $6,000 spent on porn. Had I still be applying my DVD purchase habits it would have taken 30 years for me to spend that much. I'm also less selective and will buy a VOD if it remotely interests me. If I like a performer like Lela Star or Bree Olson, I will see what else they have done and buy a few more titles.
If adult companies are not making money on VOD, then they are doing something wrong. There's clearly a new paradigm.
I think VOD and Gonzo are made for each other, although I get the impression that Gonzo's nature makes it a little bit more susceptible to piracy than features.
Feature customers tend to want the whole 'coffee table porn' package...big-budget script driven feature plus all the trimmings such as a DVD commentary, BTS featurette, Easter Eggs, soundtrack CD, fancy packaging etc. etc. which, by and large are things VOD can't provide. By and large, good features are 'keepers'.
Gonzo customers, on the other hand, just want to see what they want to see, i.e. Amy Ried taking it in the ass. Scenes are utterly interchangeable between one volume and the next, and rather than purchase decisions being 'package-led' as in the case of features, with gonzo it is more talent and/or act/niche/fetish led. If you have the right girl doing the right thing, you'll get your sale without the need for CGI skeletons or a pirate ship.
However, the advent of VOD nullifies the power of these scenes. Pre-VOD, you could sell an entire DVD on the strength of that one 'must see' scene, even if the remaining five or so scenes were shitty. Now, in the VOD era, the customer just purchases the scene they want to see and leaves the filler scenes untouched, and essentially 'unpurchased'.
This is why I believe producers need to band together and crack the whip on online piracy...the availability of one key scene can negate an entire DVD purchase, let alone a VOD purchase, and hence that scene may in fact be worth 100% of the DVD's unit or retail cost as opposed to 1/6th (for a six scene DVD).
How does all this play into the performer rates question? Simple...I can see a time where gonzo producers will no longer shoot 'movies' per se, just scenes. Stripped of the various financial and logistical obstacles inherent in the 'hard copy' DVD business model, and emboldened by the immediacy of the VOD medium, I think producers will be able to approach the Amy Ried's of tomorrow with offers far and beyond today's apparently inflated rates. You might even see something like a percentage split of profits between performer and producer.
Let us imagine that there are 10,000 people in the world who would like to see (for example) Aria Giovanni do a b/g hardcore scene. Let us also imagine that these selfsame 10,000 would be prepared to pay $10 to see it. This would give you a gross of $100,000. Even if we imagine a 60-40 or 70-30 gross split in the producer's favour, this would still mean that Aria (or Kyla Cole, or Jana Cova) would be making $30-40,000, which is a touch more than the current $1000 average.
I realise there are some deductions to be figured in...production costs, VOD service commission, affiliates, etc. before a net figure is established, but by the same token, I think an event such as the one described above would also be worth more than $10 a head, and there might well be more than 10,000 interested customers too.
Of course, not every girl/act combintion is going to be in such high demand, but I still that if this came into being, it would raise rates across the board to a level that would leave the current ones...even the inflated 'Amy Ried Anal Rates'...languishing in the dust. I think you'd quickly see a sliding scale of rates which would differ wildly, with the best girls taking home the big bucks and the lesser performers getting comparatively smaller rates...a pornographic meritocracy, if you will!
Whether this will come about or not is a story for another time, though....
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#244122 - 05/15/07 10:56 AM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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Interesting theory Dan. Perhaps there could an Ipod aproach to scenes. Some in demand scenes could go for more $$$. But what may happen is whores go directly to VOD/PPV from their own sites and stop doing scenes for producers. Luckily whores are too lazy for that.
What I could see happening is Michael's premise of a b actress comming (back) to porn. I would fork over $40 for a VOD to see Traci Lords dragged back into the gutter. I think that one would sell very well and Ms. Lords could make some money off of that one.
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"This thing is ready to do damage!"
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#244123 - 05/16/07 03:21 AM
Re: Porn Economics Part 3
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Whoremaster
Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 2710
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Quote:
Interesting theory Dan. Perhaps there could an Ipod aproach to scenes. Some in demand scenes could go for more $$$. But what may happen is whores go directly to VOD/PPV from their own sites and stop doing scenes for producers. Luckily whores are too lazy for that.
It's exactly that...Pre-MP3/iTunes, if you discovered a band late, and you just wanted the 1-3 hit singles, then you would have to fork out for the whole album. Now, the consumer can just buy the 1-3 tracks they want, and leave the other 8-13 (filler) tracks they don't want.
In the UK, we had an interesting fiasco with the new Artic Monkeys album, wherein the entire album was (accidentally) made available as singles and every track charted. Ordinarily, you'd think this would be a good thing, but their record company got into a hissy fit because they thought it would affect sales of the album. Go figure...
This is why I can see porn producers going for a 'hit single' approach (i.e., a best selling single scene) as opposed to a 'hit album' approach with a whole movie. VOD will give producers a better insight into what sells. Perhaps that one Amy Ried anal scene will be responsible for making up the entire six scene shoot budget...perhaps without that scene, the producer would have ended up losing money.
As you said in your 'Latin porn' thread, Moxie, porn companies could be making a hell of a lot more money if they embraced real world business and marketing concepts.
With the DVD market, you've no idea who the 'unit shifter' is, and if you've got a plain looking girl who happens to appear in a handful of movies with a super-hot girl (not entirely inconceivable, as new girls often get booked in 'blocks'...if you buy any gonzo with Hillary Scott in it, the chances are good that Leah Luv or Kelly Wells will also be in it, because they were new/hot at the time). This only leads to skewed statistics: 'Wow, that girl ain't much to look at, but the titles we have with her in have been selling like crazy!'.
With VOD pay-per-scene, you get a much clearer picture of who (and what) is hot and who is not, and how to best re-invest your earnings.
What VOD companies need to start doing now is to get ultra-specific with their content. I have an affiliate account with AEBN, and they categorise their hosted gallery content by niche (girl/girl, anal, interracial, etc.). They have also recently added the option of categorising by star, although this seems to be a little buggy, and often returns galleries that feature a scene from a movie in which (for example) Isabel Ice appears, rather than a gallery featuring a scene with Isabel Ice in.
The problem is 'crossover'...AEBN has a Black Dicks White Chicks niche, and an Interracial one (same again, although with some white on black galleries here and there). However, interracial hosted galleries (that are not listed under either the bdwc/interracial niche) can appear in other hosted gallery genres, like 'Big Dick' or 'Gangbang' (is Devil's Film 'Gangland' series interracial or gangbang? Or is it both?). The upshot of this is that certain content with niche appeal will not find that niche audience, and potential sales will not be realised.
Hence my contention that VOD providers need to get ultra-specific and move towards a YouTube-style 'tag' system. To wit:
Categorising A Porn Scene
Guy Fucking Girl (Hardcore, Straight)
It's a black guy and a white girl (Interracial)
He's fucking her in the ass (Anal)
She's got big tits (Busty)
He's got a big cock (Big Cock)
He's wearing a gimp mask, backless gloves and assless leather chaps (Fetish)
What colour hair does she have? (Blonde/Redhead/Brunette)
Long or Short Hair (Long Hair/Short Hair)
Any particular style? (Pigtails/Dreadlocks or Cornrows/etc.)
She has piercings in her nipples, clit hood, tongue and belly button (Pierced)
She is tattooed (Tattoo, possibly Alt.Porn depending on the style and placement of the tattoo(s))
Are her breasts real or fake? (Natural/Silicone)
Is she pale or tan? Does she have tanlines? (Pale/Tan/Tanlines)
Is this an amateur or pro shoot? (Amateur/Pro)
Is she wet or oiled up? (Wet/Oiled)
Is she flexible? (Flexible)
How old is she? (Teen/Avg./MILF/Granny)
How old is he? (Old Man/Young Girl or Older Woman/Young Guy)
Is she wearing lingerie? (Lingerie)
Is she wearing stockings? (Stockings)
Are they fishnets? (Fishnets)
Does she give him a footjob? (Feet/Legsex)
What kind of sex is it? (Normal/Rough)
Is there any verbal degradation/humiliation? (Humiliation)
Does she talk dirty? (Dirty Talk/Vocal)
Where is she from? (Euro girl/British/American etc.)
Do they 69 during foreplay? (69)
Does she deepthroat him? (Deepthroat)
Does he throatfuck her? (Throatfuck/Gagging)
Does he Donkey Punch her? (Donkey Punch)
Does he use a toy to DP her? (Dildo)
Is it a vibrator? (Vibrator)
Is it a cucumber? (Vegetable)
Does she squirt? (Squirting)
How old is this clip? (Vintage/70's/80's/????)
Is there any spanking in the scene? (Spanking)
Is it performed with a whip/crop/paddle? (Spanking w/object)
Does either one perform anilingus? (Rimming)
Does she do ATM? (Ass To Mouth)
Is her husband watching? (Cuckold)
Does the scene take place outside? (Outdoor)
At the beach? (Beach)
Or maybe inside in front of an audience? (Public/Party Sex)
Does she have painted finger/toenails, or natural? (Painted Nails)
Is he circumcised or uncircumcised? (Circ'ed/Uncirc'ed)
Does he cum in her mouth? (Cum In Mouth)
Does she swallow? (Cum Swallowing)
Does she snowball him? (Snowballing)
Does he cum on her face? (Cum On Face)
Does he come in her eye? (Pink Eye)
Does he come on her tits/ass/belly/pussy? (Yadda yadda yadda)
Does he give her an anal creampie? (Anal Creampie)
Does he felch it out? (Felching)
Does she cumfart it and drink it? (Cumfarting)
Do they cumswap afterwards? (Cumswapping)
Does she stick anything up his ass during the scene? (Lockwood)
So you can see how many microniches and subniches are going to get overlooked if the above scene was simply categorised as 'Anal' or 'Interracial'. I think the onus is on producers and studios to make sure they properly and explicitly categorise or 'tag' their product before submitting it to the VOD guys...they'll get a lot more sales, plus they'll also get an extremely clear picture of precisely what sells and what doesn't.
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