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#237816 - 04/20/07 11:50 AM
Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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Ted Nugent has a good argument on CNN.com pointing out that Guns Free Zones are like locking all the sheep in a pen and telling the wolves there is no one there to stop them. "Unarmed helplessnes" is a great description of how liberals got 32 people killed. Source Nugent: Gun-free zones are recipe for disaster POSTED: 11:25 a.m. EDT, April 20, 2007 By Ted Nugent Special to CNN Editor's note: Rock guitarist Ted Nugent has sold more than 30 million albums. He's also a gun rights activist and serves on the board of directors of the National Rifle Association. His program, "Ted Nugent Spirit of the Wild," can be seen on the Outdoor Channel. Read an opposing take on gun control from journalist Tom Plate: Let's lay down our right to bear arms WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone. Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it. Nearly a decade ago, a Springfield, Oregon, high schooler, a hunter familiar with firearms, was able to bring an unfolding rampage to an abrupt end when he identified a gunman attempting to reload his .22-caliber rifle, made the tactical decision to make a move and tackled the shooter. A few years back, an assistant principal at Pearl High School in Mississippi, which was a gun-free zone, retrieved his legally owned Colt .45 from his car and stopped a Columbine wannabe from continuing his massacre at another school after he had killed two and wounded more at Pearl. At an eighth-grade school dance in Pennsylvania, a boy fatally shot a teacher and wounded two students before the owner of the dance hall brought the killing to a halt with his own gun. More recently, just a few miles up the road from Virginia Tech, two law school students ran to fetch their legally owned firearm to stop a madman from slaughtering anybody and everybody he pleased. These brave, average, armed citizens neutralized him pronto. My hero, Dr. Suzanne Gratia Hupp, was not allowed by Texas law to carry her handgun into Luby's Cafeteria that fateful day in 1991, when due to bureaucrat-forced unarmed helplessness she could do nothing to stop satanic George Hennard from killing 23 people and wounding more than 20 others before he shot himself. Hupp was unarmed for no other reason than denial-ridden "feel good" politics. She has since led the charge for concealed weapon upgrade in Texas, where we can now stop evil. Yet, there are still the mindless puppets of the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun organizations insisting on continuing the gun-free zone insanity by which innocents are forced into unarmed helplessness. Shame on them. Shame on America. Shame on the anti-gunners all. No one was foolish enough to debate Ryder truck regulations or ammonia nitrate restrictions or a "cult of agriculture fertilizer" following the unabashed evil of Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime against America on that fateful day in Oklahoma City. No one faulted kitchen utensils or other hardware of choice after Jeffrey Dahmer was caught drugging, mutilating, raping, murdering and cannibalizing his victims. Nobody wanted "steak knife control" as they autopsied the dead nurses in Chicago, Illinois, as Richard Speck went on trial for mass murder. Evil is as evil does, and laws disarming guaranteed victims make evil people very, very happy. Shame on us. Already spineless gun control advocates are squawking like chickens with their tiny-brained heads chopped off, making political hay over this most recent, devastating Virginia Tech massacre, when in fact it is their own forced gun-free zone policy that enabled the unchallenged methodical murder of 32 people. Thirty-two people dead on a U.S. college campus pursuing their American Dream, mowed-down over an extended period of time by a lone, non-American gunman in illegal possession of a firearm on campus in defiance of a zero-tolerance gun law. Feel better yet? Didn't think so. Who doesn't get this? Who has the audacity to demand unarmed helplessness? Who likes dead good guys? I'll tell you who. People who tramp on the Second Amendment, that's who. People who refuse to accept the self-evident truth that free people have the God-given right to keep and bear arms, to defend themselves and their loved ones. People who are so desperate in their drive to control others, so mindless in their denial that they pretend access to gas causes arson, Ryder trucks and fertilizer cause terrorism, water causes drowning, forks and spoons cause obesity, dialing 911 will somehow save your life, and that their greedy clamoring to "feel good" is more important than admitting that armed citizens are much better equipped to stop evil than unarmed, helpless ones. Pray for the families of victims everywhere, America. Study the methodology of evil. It has a profile, a system, a preferred environment where victims cannot fight back. Embrace the facts, demand upgrade and be certain that your children's school has a better plan than Virginia Tech or Columbine. Eliminate the insanity of gun-free zones, which will never, ever be gun-free zones. They will only be good guy gun-free zones, and that is a recipe for disaster written in blood on the altar of denial. I, for one, refuse to genuflect there.
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#237817 - 04/20/07 12:10 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 3724
Loc: Paddling my canoe in the wild
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Source A news article in the April 18 Wall Street Journal states that one reason the Blacksburg killings are prompting few cries for gun control is that Quote:
Both pistols recovered in the Virginia Tech shootings—a Glock 9 mm and a Walther P22—were purchased legally, according to a gun trace by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
In the past, opponents of gun control have made the precise opposite argument. Appearing on CNBC's Rivera Live after Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris slaughtered 12 fellow students and one teacher at Columbine High School, Ann Coulter pooh-poohed Geraldo Rivera's call for beefed-up background checks by saying, "What difference would that have made? They … purchased the guns illegally."
A psychopathic mass-murderer buys a gun legally. That's an argument against gun control. A psychopathic mass-murderer buys a gun illegally. That's an argument against gun control, too. Everything is an argument against gun control.
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#237818 - 04/20/07 12:34 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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I think you can have gun control, but telling criminals there are places where there are absolutely no guns is an invitation for evil. You can still improve gun laws, like don't let people involuntarily commited from owning guns.
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#237819 - 04/20/07 01:09 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Whoremaster
Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 2710
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Living in the UK, I don't own a gun, but if I ever moved to America for an extended period of time, I'd definitely get one...it's the rules of the game. If the bad guys have got one, you should have one too.
As quaint as it sounds, guns don't kill people...people do. Guns are just the tool they select to do the job (and often this same tool will allow them to kill a great number of people very quickly and from quite a distance).
If the killer had stalked around the campus and just stabbed or slit the throats of people with a steak knife, would their now be a call for kitchenware supply shops to start doing background checks on whoever they sold a bladed utensil to? A two week waiting period before you can get that pizza cutter? The same applies to scissors, knitting needles, most power tools etc.
At the end of the day, there are many potentially deadly implements for sale, but it all comes down to the intent of the user. Sadly, for those at VT, this guy's intentions were purely murderous...if he couldn't have laid his hands on a gun, I'm sure he'd have found another way like a bomb or poisoning the cafeteria.
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#237820 - 04/20/07 01:58 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Pervert
Registered: 08/05/05
Posts: 2116
Loc: Faber College
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Somehow I don't think Yankee Stadium or Fenway Park during a Red Sox-Yanks game would be a good place to have guns readily available.
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#237824 - 04/21/07 05:26 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Max Hardcore Prison Bitch
Registered: 03/23/05
Posts: 422
Loc: Mitteleuropa
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i am pro-guns, BUT:
when a certified psycho, who's been sent to a mental facility still legally owns two handguns, i think something is wrong in your gun control laws.
That fact that he lied in the application form means shit...there should be some sort of control on that, cmooooon.
i mean...even NRA agrees with me:
fox news
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#237825 - 04/21/07 10:10 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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Gun free zones don't effect evil criminals like the gook. They only make sure that the good guys will unarmed.
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#237827 - 04/21/07 02:23 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 5186
Loc: Joshua Tree National Park
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Quote:
another two things i do not understand:
-why cops never enter the buildings, always waiting until nothing is moving/making sound anymore (read: everybody is dead already).
This especially striked me when i watched documentaries about Columbine, 3 and more hours before SWAT moved in.
-the retarded policy of ducking/cowering under a desk (seen in Columbine and i guess same happened in Virginia).
I think is MUCH better run like hell and try to escape, especially against gunmen armed with handguns only (not Columbine case, but still...).
You are going to have a swarm of campus, local, perhaps state police all unfamiliar with each other shooting at anything carrying a gun that moves , or in other words at each other. The shooter was also dressed in a vest to add to the confusion. The majority of these police (outside of campus cops) are likely unfamiliar with the layout of the building (exits, hallways, stairwells, what leads where, etc.) Best to have thought out of a plan then execute it rather than just winging it. Less likely to get your ass sued off by doing nothing than by doing something but doing it very badly.
The fairly natural reaction when faced with a dramatic, potentially life altering situation that one is not prepared for is to freeze. But I do agree that if I was a situation like this and escape was not possible charge and attack would have better odds than pose for a head shot.
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#237828 - 04/26/07 11:13 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Internet Tough Guy
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 786
Loc: on the dark side of the moon
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Moxie, correct me if I am wrong, but all of America should already be a gun free zone by definition because the right to bear arms has long since been restricted to the right to keep a gun at home. As a civilian you don't have the right to bear arms. You don't have the right to walk around with a gun in your pocket (guys should only be concerned with one type of gun in their pockets, because a guy who gets laid is a guy who doesn’t kill people). You don't have the right to keep a gun in the glove compartment of your car. You are not allowed to take a gun to school, into the office, to the shopping mall, into a strip-club, to the movies, into a restaurant. So what is gun ownership all about?
Who really needs a gun? Somebody who is going for an armed robbery, murder, shooting police officers, gang wars, etc. There is no legitimate purpose for carrying a gun.
Self defense? BS. If you are on the street and somebody pulls a gun on you, what are you going to do? Pull out yours faster then Billy The Kid? Dart behind a car like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible and then kill the evil fucker? Nope, you are going to freeze and be nice and while you think of all your loved ones you will be hoping that the psycho with the gun is going to let you live.
We already went through all this as a nation. In the days of the "Wild West" when there wasn't any law enforcement in the wilderness you had to be your own law enforcement. We evolved. We keep evolving. One of the primary functions of a people’s government is to guarantee the physical safety of its citizens. We can’t take over that function as individuals.
People often say that it’s not the guns that kill; it’s the evil people that kill, a gun is like a car, a neutral (harmless) instrument that isn’t evil in itself.
I don’t agree with that. A gun is an instrument that if utilized properly has only one function, one purpose. To cause severe physical harm, or worse, kill. Without a gun there is no way that one single person could kill 32 with the twitch of a finger. One could still kill with a knife, (or a hammer?) but it’s going to be a lot harder and it would never come the horrific body counts we are witnessing more and more.
Owning guns is part of American culture and one can’t take that away. There is a history, there is a tradition that needs to be respected. But I think it should become more difficult to buy a gun legally. It should become like buying and driving a car. You know, it’s not cars that kill, it’s people with cars that kill. I don’t know much about guns, so maybe what I am saying is redundant, but here is my proposal:
1) As a prerequisite to owning a gun you should first need to get a state issued license that you only get after passing a test (just like a driver’s license)
2) Then you should have to buy some form of (cheap) minimum liability insurance coverage for gun owners. Past history of mental illness? Bipolar? Sorry, no insurance is going to sign you on = no gun for you.
3) Then your gun would be registered under your name with a state department, and you would have to wait a few weeks until the department issues the registration and the store releases the gun to you – cooling down period for crimes of passion
4) Every gun, every weapon legally produced in the US should have an identification number engraved and registered to make the proliferation of illegal guns – at least the ones we make and sell in the US – more difficult.
Nothing of the above will prevent or eradicate crime. There still will be a black market where professional bad guys can get anything they need. But a sad nutcase like the Virginia Tech monster or the next bunch of mentally disturbed teen-age kids who are already out there planning to shoot more then 32 when their meltdown happens would be less likely to get those guns. Make it more difficult. Save some lives. At least try to.
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#237829 - 04/26/07 11:41 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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Vanessa, I don't have any problem with gun control and generally favor it for large cities. There should certainly be steps taken to ensure that people who have mental illness do not have a gun. Even in a city like NY people have carry permits, though they are hard to come by. I have one. What the article I quoted is saying is that when you completely take guns away from law abiding citizens, you insure that only miscreants and lunatics will have them. To sum up, take some guns away, don't take all guns away. And if you take all guns away, ensure there is someone to protect people.  
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#237831 - 04/26/07 11:49 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 3812
Loc: Neither here, nor there.
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Quote:
Moxie, correct me if I am wrong, but all of America should already be a gun free zone by definition because the right to bear arms has long since been restricted to the right to keep a gun at home.
Not true, I have a carry & conceal permit for the state of Pennsylvania. I can carry my gun pretty much anywhere except for government buildings (where I can check it at the door), or schools.
Quote:
As a civilian you don't have the right to bear arms.
You bet your ass I do.
Quote:
You don't have the right to walk around with a gun in your pocket. You don't have the right to keep a gun in the glove compartment of your car. You are not allowed to take a gun to school, into the office, to the shopping mall, into a strip-club, to the movies, into a restaurant. So what is gun ownership all about?
None of this is true. Ok, I'm done... I could pick this apart all fucking day. You really have a lot of faith in your government, and your fellow man, don't you?
If that campus wouldn't have been a gun-free zone then there's a good chance that a responsible gun owner could've popped that fucking asshole off, and saved 32 lives. You must live in some yuppie housing plan, where the streets are paved with gold, and good intentions. I liked your other posts but this one is absolute bullshit.
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#237832 - 04/26/07 11:56 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 3812
Loc: Neither here, nor there.
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Quote:
Prepare yourself for culture shock but not everyone lives in the city. What are you going to do if you live in a rural area where it may take law enforcement 30 to 45 minutes to get to your house after the 911 call if some stranger(criminal, nutjob, methhead, who knows) is trying to break into your house or some creep pulls up in the driveway and starts eyeing your kids in the front yard? Chase them off with a pointed stick?
Exactly... besides, when it comes down to it, it's MY responsibility to protect my family, not some hourly, couldn't-care-less asshole with a badge, 10 miles away.
Quote:
What the article I quoted is saying is that when you completely take guns away from law abiding citizens, you insure that only miscreants and lunatics will have them.
This is also a HUGE point, make it as hard as you want for good people to get guns, the bad people will still be able to get them just as easily as before. Gun free zones create mass amounts of victims.
Edited by Vizzle-O-Dizzle (04/26/07 11:57 AM)
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#237836 - 04/26/07 01:06 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Demon Spawn
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 3080
Loc: cleanup
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I have no problem with rifles, especially assault rifles, since they're hard to conceal, and we're going to need 'em one day when the Government goes too far. I have no problem with handguns for responsible homeowners and businessmen protecting their own. I DO have a problem with these redneck gunshops selling pieces illegally to people who transport them up the "Iron Pipeline" of I-95 to New York and other cities, where they're sold to gangbangers and other criminals. Some say that more laws are the answer. Others say that stricter enforcement of existing laws is the answer. Personally I think that both are right. Obviously we need to amend the laws to prevent psychos like Cho from getting their hands on weapons. And clearly Gonzales and Co. are doing nothing to enforce the statutes already on the books. I don't own a gun. Never have. Never felt the need and never trusted myself with one. But I do recognize their necessity in our society, and feel that a total ban would be suicidal.
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#237837 - 04/26/07 01:25 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 10/30/06
Posts: 3812
Loc: Neither here, nor there.
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Quote:
I DO have a problem with these redneck gunshops selling pieces illegally to people who transport them up the "Iron Pipeline" of I-95 to New York and other cities, where they're sold to gangbangers and other criminals. Some say that more laws are the answer. Others say that stricter enforcement of existing laws is the answer. Personally I think that both are right. Obviously we need to amend the laws to preent psychos like Cho from getting their hands on weapons. And clearly Gonzales and Co. are doing nothing to enforce the statutes already on the books. I don't own a gun. Never have. Never felt the need and never trusted myself with one. But I do recognize their necessity in our society, and feel that a total ban would be suicidal.
I hear that... when they catch these assholes selling illegal guns they should throw the book at them. It gives legitimate gun dealers, and non-criminal carriers a bad name. I don't know if having more laws and regulations is the answer though because, once again, you're making it harder for the "good guys" to get them. If Cho couldn't have bought his guns legally, for whatever reason, he would've just bought them illegally, plain and simple. IMO, stricter enforcement is the key here.
Quote:
But I do recognize their necessity in our society, and feel that a total ban would be suicidal.
To me, this is an extremely important statement. We're living in a free society, and while the VA Tech tragedy was a terrible event, I think that these kinds of things are bound to happen in ANY society with the kind of freedom, diversity, and population that we do.
The other option is upping the Patriot Act to the next level, and allowing our government to take away our freedoms one by one... after all, once they take the guns away what's to stop them from taking everything else?
I just feel that modifying our right to bear arms, infringing on our personal privacy, and infringing on our right to protect ourselves are far worse than the alternative... which in this case is one random wackjob who didn't get hugged enough as a child.
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#237838 - 04/26/07 01:34 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Demon Spawn
Registered: 02/11/07
Posts: 3080
Loc: cleanup
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I'm about 90/10 on the side of enforcement vs. new laws, really. Just enough new stuff to plug a few loopholes.
The illegal dealers not only give a bad name to law abiding dealers and carriers: They endanger the lives of innocent people, including the cops who try to get the guns off the streeet and out of the hands of gangbangers. I posted a while ago about a cop killer who got the Death penalty for killing two undercover cops on Staten Island. If there was better enforcement, this might not have happened.
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"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you set out to drain the swamp" -- HST
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#237839 - 04/26/07 02:12 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 3724
Loc: Paddling my canoe in the wild
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Quote:
To me, this is an extremely important statement. We're living in a free society, and while the VA Tech tragedy was a terrible event, I think that these kinds of things are bound to happen in ANY society with the kind of freedom, diversity, and population that we do.
...
I just feel that modifying our right to bear arms, infringing on our personal privacy, and infringing on our right to protect ourselves are far worse than the alternative... which in this case is one random wackjob who didn't get hugged enough as a child.
It's interesting that we agree on the peripheral issues while having diametrically opposite viewpoints on the central one.
I agree that from time to time nutcases will grab a gun (or a bomb cf Tim McVeigh) and kill many many people. I also agree that this will happen regardless of the whether or not there are more or less gun laws (although enforcing the ones you got would help some).
By way of illustration, I live in Canada where virtually nobody can own a pistol, let alone carry one (rifles, shotguns and target guns are exceptions, but heavily restricted). There is no such thing as a concealed carry permit for anyone not in law enforcement.
Does that mean we are immune to random acts of craziness? Hell no. They happen surprisingly often:
Montreal, PQ - December 6, 1989
Taber, Alberta - Aprl 29, 1999
Montreal, PQ - September 13, 2006
My point is that restricting the use and ownership of firearms stops small problems from escalating into deadly ones. I just don't believe the point made earlier, that bar fights do not escalate because everyone knows the other guy has a gun. The theory of mutually assured destruction only works if people are behaving rationally.
There is no question that a drunk 20 year old who feels humiliated will pull out his gun and do something avoidable and regrettable.
In 2002 Canada experienced 867 firearms related deaths (including suicides) or 2.6 deaths per 100,000 population, down from 5.9 per 100,000 in 1979. The US experience is about eight times as high. Is it because you like killing each other more than we do? Of course not - It occurs because there are too many guns floating around and drunk idiots use them to settle disputes.
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center collects statistics and scholarly articles on gun violence. The bottom line is that states with higher levels of gun ownership have higher levels of gun violence - full stop.
More guns = more gun deaths.
Quote:
1. Guns and homicide (literature review).
We performed a review of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on homicide rates.
Major Findings: A broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Publication: Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. "Firearm Availability and Homicide: A Review of the Literature." Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.
2. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 1988-1997
Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period.
Major findings: After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.
Publication: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. "Household Firearm Ownership Levels and Homicide Rates across U.S. Regions and States, 1988-1997." American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.
3. Gun availability and state homicide rates, 2001-2003
Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003.
Major Findings: States with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.
Submission: Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. “Homicide Victimization of Americans in Relation to Household Firearm Ownership, by Age and Gender.†Social Science and Medicine. in press..
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#237841 - 04/27/07 10:01 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Internet Tough Guy
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 786
Loc: on the dark side of the moon
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Quote:
Quote:
Self defense? BS. If you are on the street and somebody pulls a gun on you, what are you going to do? Pull out yours faster then Billy The Kid? Dart behind a car like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible and then kill the evil fucker? Nope, you are going to freeze and be nice and while you think of all your loved ones you will be hoping that the psycho with the gun is going to let you live.
Prepare yourself for culture shock but not everyone lives in the city. What are you going to do if you live in a rural area where it may take law enforcement 30 to 45 minutes to get to your house after the 911 call if some stranger(criminal, nutjob, methhead, who knows) is trying to break into your house or some creep pulls up in the driveway and starts eyeing your kids in the front yard? Chase them off with a pointed stick? Where I grew up my county's entire public safety division consisted of a sheriff, two deputies, two state troopers, and a handful of volunteer fire departments. All it would take to tie up all available law enforcement officers on a particular shift would be someone's cow getting out of a pasture and wondering onto a highway. Realistically self defense was the only sure defense you could have. My unscientific estimate is that at least 60% of the households where I lived had at least one gun in them and a significant portion had a shitload more than one. I am 40 years old despite all these guns that everyone had access too the last homicide in my county occured before i was born.
Quote:
Without a gun there is no way that one single person could kill 32 with the twitch of a finger.
Do the names Timothy McVeigh and Jim Jones mean anything to you?
Hey there “unknown pervert†I get your point. Actually I find your post very informative because you actually explain to somebody like me who lives in a densely populated metropolitan area (also know as Los Angeles) why there are places in this country where you legitimately need to have a gun. It's not as bad as a culture shock, it doesn't take much imagination to understand your point, but it's true that people like me who have always lived in safe areas have no direct knowledge of what a gun does for you in rural areas or in less privileged urban areas. I don’t know anybody who ever got into an armed confrontation. I have never met anybody who used a gun to protect himself. Also we in the cities tend to think of rural areas as virtually crime free areas where the “good folks†live in tightly knit communities that watch out for each other. I get it; it’s not that way.
The problem is that every time the word gun control comes up it seems that people go ballistic and become so emotional about the issue that it’s hard to hear the rational arguments.
"Vizzle-O-Dizzle", you are right, I have always lived in places where the best way to stay out of trouble is to just avoid it. I get your point that there are many places in this country where that's not that simple. But I'd like to better understand how a "typical" situation would look like for you where your carrying a gun makes it safer for you. I mean, give me an example, how would a typical confrontation with a gun look like for you? And why do you need to carry a gun with you at all times? Is it that bad where you live?
“Moxieâ€, why do you have a carry permit? You live in a big city (New York?) What kind of situations outside your home could you get into where reaching for your gun would help you out?
As far as Timothy McVeigh and Jim Jones are concerned, I thought we were just talking about guns here, not poison, explosives or other weapons of mass murder and destruction.
And all that said, what do you people who are legitimate gun owners propose to make things better?
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#237842 - 04/27/07 10:36 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Max Hardcore Prison Bitch
Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 220
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I grew up in a redneck household. I started shooting when I was 2. I have guns in my own home now. Where I live you can carry gun in your car, if its visable. You can easily get a CCW.
The crime rate is very low here. But if someone was trying to come into my home, You bet I would protect my daughter and myself and use a gun. I hope I never have to, but in the event we need defense, I feel better knowing I have at least a chance.
I also know that I could shoot the fucker in the kneecaps and make him suffer for his life term in prison. Instead of killing him, he would think about what he tried to do in my home everyday as he crawled away from bubba with blownout knees.
_________________________
"Do it Dirty, or Don't Bother!!"
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#237843 - 04/27/07 10:59 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Stormy's Lawyer
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 24
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Mr. Grizz,
Twice in this thread, I have read you stating that if young people(20ish) were to carry arms, many more problems would happen.
I do not agree.
When one carries an arm, they quickly understands that IF things get out of hand, it may well end up in a lot bigger situation than a busted nose from a fist fight. Therefore, one who carries a handgun does much more to NOT be in a bad situation when they occur.
I learned at a very early age that walking away with a .45 tucked under my shirt (with my ego or pride hurt) is a LOT better idea than getting into it with someone over some stupid shit.
I have carried a pistol since I was very young. Never have I been in an altercation when I had a weapon on my person. This was by choice, forced on me because I had the Colt.
Handguns are not mace/pepper spray/stun gun. They are lethal. If you lose control of the gun, it may well be turned on you. If you use the gun, someone may well die. It just don't pay to get in the middle of any squabble if you are packing. It is a life or death tool.
Once again, we make worst case scenarios out of an extreme example, and try to base unnecessary restriction on it.
Oh, and for what it's worth, a handgun is the poorest choice(from a tactical standpoint) of the available platforms. It lacks ease of operation, ability to kit very hard, accuracy, and ranging ability. In fact, about the only good thing about a handgun is the fact that it is easy to carry.....after all, the first rule of a gunfight is "Have a gun"
PDub
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#237845 - 04/27/07 12:28 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 3724
Loc: Paddling my canoe in the wild
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Quote:
Mr. Grizz,
Twice in this thread, I have read you stating that if young people(20ish) were to carry arms, many more problems would happen.
I do not agree.
When one carries an arm, they quickly understands that IF things get out of hand, it may well end up in a lot bigger situation than a busted nose from a fist fight. Therefore, one who carries a handgun does much more to NOT be in a bad situation when they occur.
I learned at a very early age that walking away with a .45 tucked under my shirt (with my ego or pride hurt) is a LOT better idea than getting into it with someone over some stupid shit.
I have carried a pistol since I was very young. Never have I been in an altercation when I had a weapon on my person. This was by choice, forced on me because I had the Colt.
Handguns are not mace/pepper spray/stun gun. They are lethal. If you lose control of the gun, it may well be turned on you. If you use the gun, someone may well die. It just don't pay to get in the middle of any squabble if you are packing. It is a life or death tool.
Once again, we make worst case scenarios out of an extreme example, and try to base unnecessary restriction on it.
Oh, and for what it's worth, a handgun is the poorest choice(from a tactical standpoint) of the available platforms. It lacks ease of operation, ability to kit very hard, accuracy, and ranging ability. In fact, about the only good thing about a handgun is the fact that it is easy to carry.....after all, the first rule of a gunfight is "Have a gun"
PDub
I'm sure that you are above average in maturity and responsibility; however, are you saying that teenagers have the same control over their emotions, responsibilities or even their hand eye coordination as 'grown ups'?
Why don't we let teenagers drink? Vote? Drive cars? I suggest it is because the vast majority of them are irresponsible.
Why do so many teenagers get into serious car accidents? By your analysis, they should all understand that a car is far more dangerous than a bike and alter their behaviour accordingly. Some do, some don't.
_________________________
You're all still alive?
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#237848 - 04/27/07 06:15 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Stormy's Lawyer
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 24
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Mr Grizz,
By the time I was legal to buy beer in America, I was smart enough to not kill myself/others, unless it was necessary.
Maturity was placed upon me when Dad handed me a pistol...
Please feel free to thank my parents for a job well done. They are available between 4am and 8pm every day of the week.
PDub
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#237850 - 04/29/07 08:50 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 6005
Loc: travieso capital management an...
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handguns are really a defensive weapon-the body count in this story is s in that he had that much time with that many defenseless targets that chose passivity over mounting a charge that would have overwhelmed someone that size 100% of the time. small guy, many people within 10 yards, low rate of fire of light and slow rounds, he might get off five hurried shots before people are on top of him rendering the gun useless.
when you choose a handgun as your offensive weapon in an area with lots of people the police generally show up or someone else has a gun.
the second there's another gun in the mix, you're no longer on offense. if it's some guy with a CCW pulling out his USP in a big crowd, you're being hunted unless you can watch every hand in a building. then it's a gunfight.
the second the police arrive you lose because unless you're shooting ammo not sold to the public out of a fabrique national(and that's still a reach) you're shooting bullets about half the velocity needed to reliably defeat the body armor the regular cops wear. they show up, your time on the offensive officially ends because a handgun is next to useless at keeping distance between people moving towards you with any kind of coordination because when someone's moving two of their friends are shooting at you.
you go beserk with a handgun you're going to invariably die and you've gotta find the perfect wave of a murdering-spree like cho did to have any chance of killing that many people.
_________________________
"She has no waist, no arse...an interesting face...but all we are really worshipping is two bags of silicone"
Martin Amis "honoring" katie price with a character bearing some of her traits
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#237853 - 05/03/07 02:06 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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By definition nothing will stop people from using illegal guns. But if you want to curb use of legal guns, there is a simple sollution. Require that each legally owned firearm submit to a balistics profile. Then if you discharge a weapon you know that the slug is going to have your name written all over it. Its really a simple sollution, I don't know why no one ever talks about it.
_________________________
"This thing is ready to do damage!"
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#237855 - 05/03/07 02:33 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
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It's pretty simple to change the profile. I think a small file or a nail or most anything that will scribe the barrel interior will do the job.
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#237856 - 05/03/07 02:43 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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Periodic retesting (every three years) would solve that. Its not like someone is going to say, wait a minute while I file down my barrel so I can shoot you.
_________________________
"This thing is ready to do damage!"
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#237857 - 05/03/07 03:29 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
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It won't work. It's impractical and logistically impossible, not to mention inaccurate.
We have adequate gunlaws in place. We just need to enforce them.
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#237860 - 05/03/07 03:45 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Human Garbage
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1557
Loc: New York
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Speaking of enforcement I'm surprised no one mentioned this one.
Gun Charges Dropped Against Senate Aide
April 27, 2007 - 5:27pm
WASHINGTON (AP) - Authorities dropped charges Friday against an aide to Virginia Sen. Jim Webb who carried a loaded gun into the U.S. Capitol complex.
"After reviewing and analyzing all of the evidence in the case, we do not believe the essential elements of the crime of carrying a pistol without a license can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt," U.S. Attorney Jeff Taylor, top prosecutor in the District of Columbia, said in a short statement.
Webb senior aide Phillip Thompson, 45, was arrested on March 26 after Capitol Police spotted the loaded pistol and two other loaded magazines in a briefcase being scanned by an X-ray machine at the entrance of the Russell Senate office building.
Thompson told the officer at the building's entrance that the weapon belonged to Webb. The senator said later he did not give Thompson the gun but refused to say whether it was his. Webb told reporters Thompson had carried the gun into the building "completely inadvertently."
District of Columbia law prohibits carrying a handgun or concealed weapon without a license.
(Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.)
WASHINGTON (AP) - Authorities dropped charges Friday against an aide to Virginia Sen. Jim Webb who carried a loaded gun into the U.S. Capitol complex.
"After reviewing and analyzing all of the evidence in the case, we do not believe the essential elements of the crime of carrying a pistol without a license can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt," U.S. Attorney Jeff Taylor, top prosecutor in the District of Columbia, said in a short statement.
Webb senior aide Phillip Thompson, 45, was arrested on March 26 after Capitol Police spotted the loaded pistol and two other loaded magazines in a briefcase being scanned by an X-ray machine at the entrance of the Russell Senate office building.
Thompson told the officer at the building's entrance that the weapon belonged to Webb. The senator said later he did not give Thompson the gun but refused to say whether it was his. Webb told reporters Thompson had carried the gun into the building "completely inadvertently."
District of Columbia law prohibits carrying a handgun or concealed weapon without a license.
_________________________
"This thing is ready to do damage!"
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#237861 - 05/03/07 04:31 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Stormy's Lawyer
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 24
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Maybe, instead of only allowing a small percentage of the population to carry concealed, it should be required that at least half of the population carry.
Think about it, would you pull a pistol in a place where you knew someone else DID have a way to return fire?
Sounds like a polite society in the making.
PDub
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#237862 - 05/04/07 11:45 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Internet Tough Guy
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 786
Loc: on the dark side of the moon
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Adults in the Lynchburg-Roanoke area of Virginia are not happy with their gun laws.
50% thought the Virginia Tech shootings were "completely" or "partially" avoidable and 52% thought Virginia's gun laws should be more restrictive. Only 17% thought allowing guns on campus would have saved lives in the shootings; 31% thought it would have resulted in more deaths.
Here Are The Results of SurveyUSA News Poll #12051
Geography Surveyed: Roanoke-Lynchburg DMA
Data Collected: 04/18/2007
Release Date: 04/18/2007 12:35 PM ET
Sponsor: WDBJ-TV Roanoke
1
Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = ± 4.5%
Based on what you know right now, do you think the shootings at Virginia Tech were completely avoidable? Partially avoidable? Or unavoidable?
11% Completely Avoidable
39% Partially Avoidable
46% Unavoidable
5% Not Sure
2
Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = ± 4.5%
Do you think authorities could have done anything differently that would have prevented the shootings or led to fewer deaths? Or do you think authorities did everything they could?
43% Could Have Done Something Differently
45% Did Everything They Could
11% Not Sure
3
Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = ± 4.5%
Virginia citizens can obtain licenses to carry concealed weapons, but Virginia Tech has a policy prohibiting guns on campus. If guns were allowed on campus, do you think fewer people would have died? Do you think more people would have died? Or do you not think it would have made a difference either way?
17% Fewer People Would Have Died
31% More People Would Have Died
44% Would Not Have Made a Difference
7% Not Sure
4
Asked of 500 Adults
Margin of Sampling Error for this question = ± 4.5%
Do you think gun laws in Virginia should be more restrictive than they are now? Less restrictive than they are now? Or do you think gun laws in Virginia are just about right?
52% More Restrictive
8% Less Restrictive
38% About Right
2% Not Sure
x
Complete Interactive Crosstabs
i
Statement of Methodology
!
© 2007 SurveyUSA / Contractual Obligations
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#237863 - 05/05/07 04:43 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 5849
Loc: TX, USA
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They had the gun law they needed. The bureaucracy just didn't use it. Gap is reportedly now closed (supposedly).
_________________________
"If they can't picture me with a knife, forcing them to strip in an alley, I don't want any part of it. It's humiliating." - windsock
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#237865 - 05/06/07 12:15 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Internet Tough Guy
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 786
Loc: on the dark side of the moon
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Quote:
The world is full of people who hope to solve complex problems with simple solutions.
2) Then there are the people who hope to solve simple problems with complex solutions.
3) Then there are the people who think that the problems have no solutions.
4) Then there are the people who think that there are no problems and therefore no solutions are needed.
I'm so smart, my head is hurting 
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#237866 - 05/06/07 07:26 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 461
Loc: Hell, or something like it
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>1) As a prerequisite to owning a gun you should first need to get a state issued license that you only get after passing a test (just like a driver’s license)
2) Then you should have to buy some form of (cheap) minimum liability insurance coverage for gun owners. Past history of mental illness? Bipolar? Sorry, no insurance is going to sign you on = no gun for you.
3) Then your gun would be registered under your name with a state department, and you would have to wait a few weeks until the department issues the registration and the store releases the gun to you – cooling down period for crimes of passion
4) Every gun, every weapon legally produced in the US should have an identification number engraved and registered to make the proliferation of illegal guns – at least the ones we make and sell in the US – more difficult.
Nothing of the above will prevent or eradicate crime. There still will be a black market where professional bad guys can get anything they need. But a sad nutcase like the Virginia Tech monster or the next bunch of mentally disturbed teen-age kids who are already out there planning to shoot more then 32 when their meltdown happens would be less likely to get those guns. Make it more difficult. Save some lives. At least try to.<
Yea, you’re a real brainyack.
So let’s think about this, you’re going to create all these guidelines to gun ownership, or take it a step further, as some would like, and make them illegal.
Ok, so that will solve the problem, or at least lessen the risk of being shot by some wacko.
But….. drugs are illegal, and very easy to come by, even if you aren’t a “professional junkieâ€. We have even had a “war†on drugs since Regan and they are still so easy to acquire that middle schoolers are doing them. But hey, guns would be much harder to get into this country than drugs right? No way they could get them across the boarder. Yeah let’s make them hard to get legally and the problem will just go away. 
_________________________
You can’t be a pimp and a prostitute too. -some song I heard...
I'm like: 'Is it even legal to say that?' Then I realized we were grown men."
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#237867 - 05/06/07 09:12 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Internet Tough Guy
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 786
Loc: on the dark side of the moon
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Quote:
But….. drugs are illegal, and very easy to come by, even if you aren’t a “professional junkieâ€. We have even had a “war†on drugs since Regan and they are still so easy to acquire that middle schoolers are doing them. But hey, guns would be much harder to get into this country than drugs right? No way they could get them across the boarder. Yeah let’s make them hard to get legally and the problem will just go away.
I don't understand. You want to legalize drugs? Maybe you are right, that would make things better...
If you read the entire thread you will see that other people already tore up my "proposal" and they did a better job at it then you did. Forget about it.
I don't know what the solution is. But generic whining - there is nothing at all that can be done to improve the situation - is not something that I will endorse. I haven't heard anyone suggest anything about how to improve the situation. All I hear is how things cannot get better, only worse. The only exception is the enforcing of laws that already exist. Well, I'm all for it... but why didn't that work already?
Maybe you like the way things are now. I don't. I'm a woman, I don't want to have to carry a gun when I leave the house. There are children, elderly people and all the "weak" who rely on a minimum of safety and protection. If that's not part of America any longer then I don't know what to say...
I live on the westside of LA, where the average response time of a police patrol is 7 minutes. I feel safe enough. I don't trust the government with much, but I trust your vision of an armed militia even less, since this militia is doing nothing to improve anything, and it certainly is not improving my safety.
Stop criticizing my post, say something constructive. Where are the solutions?
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#237870 - 05/07/07 07:30 AM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 549
Loc: Pittsburgh Pa
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Quote:
Quote:
But….. drugs are illegal, and very easy to come by, even if you aren’t a “professional junkieâ€. We have even had a “war†on drugs since Regan and they are still so easy to acquire that middle schoolers are doing them. But hey, guns would be much harder to get into this country than drugs right? No way they could get them across the boarder. Yeah let’s make them hard to get legally and the problem will just go away.
I don't understand. You want to legalize drugs? Maybe you are right, that would make things better...
If you read the entire thread you will see that other people already tore up my "proposal" and they did a better job at it then you did. Forget about it.
I don't know what the solution is. But generic whining - there is nothing at all that can be done to improve the situation - is not something that I will endorse. I haven't heard anyone suggest anything about how to improve the situation. All I hear is how things cannot get better, only worse. The only exception is the enforcing of laws that already exist. Well, I'm all for it... but why didn't that work already?
Maybe you like the way things are now. I don't. I'm a woman, I don't want to have to carry a gun when I leave the house. There are children, elderly people and all the "weak" who rely on a minimum of safety and protection. If that's not part of America any longer then I don't know what to say...
I live on the westside of LA, where the average response time of a police patrol is 7 minutes. I feel safe enough. I don't trust the government with much, but I trust your vision of an armed militia even less, since this militia is doing nothing to improve anything, and it certainly is not improving my safety.
Stop criticizing my post, say something constructive. Where are the solutions?
hey someone sent me a friend request with this pic...vanessa is this you...
_________________________
"Alexis Bledel, aka Rory Gilmore. I wanna do her and Lauren Graham at the same time...but only if they stay in mother/daughter character...or else it's the rubber hose for the both of 'em." ~Vizzle
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#237871 - 05/07/07 12:35 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Internet Tough Guy
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 786
Loc: on the dark side of the moon
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Quote:
Petey, do you have permission from your mother to post her picture on this site? Do you even have permission from your mother to BE on this site? Now take your Ritalin, go play with your toy guns and leave the serious conversations to rest of us adults.
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#237872 - 05/07/07 01:58 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 549
Loc: Pittsburgh Pa
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#237873 - 05/07/07 04:41 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Internet Tough Guy
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 786
Loc: on the dark side of the moon
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Petey, do you have permission from your mother to post her picture on this site? Do you even have permission from your mother to BE on this site? Now take your Ritalin, go play with your toy guns and leave the serious conversations to rest of us adults.
 MMM…..Ritalin...Nice job throwing the mother insults at me right away dude...but to answer you question No I don't get my mother's permission for a lot of stuff I do...However. Your Naive look on the world and is not only remedial, but its also down right idiotic …The "War on drugs" is the worst hunk of shit that this government has tried to use to stop the Drug Epidemic. I really think that is the absolute oppisit of what we should be doing to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people Why don’t you come live in western pa were the crazy rednecks would hit on you at a bar…then when they find your man meet between your legs they would more then likely beat you to death for making them uncomfortable with their sexuality…Then you can tell me your idea’s on removing gun’s from everyone… When you decided to return from whatever fantasyland your currently living in let me know. Until then Go mutilate your dick so you can finally feel like a woman and sit down to pee…. Look can someone bump this to the cage…I think a Tranny is about to get bitched slapped…
 
First of all, troll, keep in mind I wasn't the one who began hurling the insults. Talk about remedial: it's "opposite" not "oppisit", "bitch slapped" not "bitched slapped" "meat" not "meet", and "you're" not "your" [Mommy keep you home from school that day - or was it daddy?  ] Keep in mind there's a spell checker on this site as well for future reference... Tell me - what makes you any different from the other trash in Western PA? When you lose an argument, you resort to bigoted and hateful personal attacks [and not particularly funny ones at that] - ones that clearly show how uncomfortable you are with your own sexuality - or anybody else's for that matter. As far as the specious comparison with the war on drugs, I didn't bring that up, although I'm happy to comment on what a moronic comparison you've fashioned out of it - but then it seems as though the others have already pointed that out to you. Well, I wish you the best in your quest to one day actually experience sex...then you wouldn't have to come vent your frustrations on the rest of us. By the way, I think I'll pass up the tempting invite to move to Western PA, I prefer L.A. Hope your gun doesn't accidentally go off when you're cleaning it next time. Bitch-slapped indeed!
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#237874 - 05/07/07 07:32 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 461
Loc: Hell, or something like it
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Quote:
Stop criticizing my post, say something constructive. Where are the solutions?
You know what, maybe there is no solution to this, maybe it’s like trying to prevent automobile accidents. Maybe, just maybe, if some wacko is intent on harming others he’s going to find a way, whether it is a gun, knife, bomb, or a big stick with a rusty nail in it.
You’re standing in front of two houses and are intent on entering one of them and causing a ruckus.... robbery, rape, maybe even murder. You know the occupants of one house own and know how too/will use a firearm. The other house is gun free, which do you enter?
_________________________
You can’t be a pimp and a prostitute too. -some song I heard...
I'm like: 'Is it even legal to say that?' Then I realized we were grown men."
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#237875 - 05/07/07 07:51 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Internet Tough Guy
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 786
Loc: on the dark side of the moon
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Quote:
You know what, maybe there is no solution to this, maybe it’s like trying to prevent automobile accidents. Maybe, just maybe, if some wacko is intent on harming others he’s going to find a way, whether it is a gun, knife, bomb, or a big stick with a rusty nail in it.
Amen to that. Wise words. I've nothing else to add to this, I'm moving on to the next topic...
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#237876 - 05/16/07 06:42 PM
Re: Guns Free Zones = Recipe For disaster
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Kurt Lackwood's Fluffer
Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 1283
Loc: SoCal
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US Department of Justice files show that in every city/state that has allowed the private citizen the right to carry a firearm in public (Arizona, New Mexico, Florida, to name a few) has seen a large decrease (sometimes more than a 50% drop) in all violent crimes.
IF the bad guys know that the good guys are armed, they think twice.
An armed society is a polite society.
_________________________
I'd rather be ignorant than stupid.
Ignorance implies a lack of knowledge which is easily correctable through education.
Stupidity implies an inability to learn.
Therefore; ignorance is temporary, stupidity is forever!
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