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#209015 - 12/24/06 07:01 PM Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
We need to do it again.

Quote:

Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.



And now the State of South Carolina having resumed her separate and equal place among nations, deems it due to herself, to the remaining United States of America, and to the nations of the world, that she should declare the immediate causes which have led to this act.



In the year 1765, that portion of the British Empire embracing Great Britain, undertook to make laws for the government of that portion composed of the thirteen American Colonies. A struggle for the right of self-government ensued, which resulted, on the 4th of July, 1776, in a Declaration, by the Colonies, "that they are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; and that, as free and independent States, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do."



They further solemnly declared that whenever any "form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government." Deeming the Government of Great Britain to have become destructive of these ends, they declared that the Colonies "are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved."



In pursuance of this Declaration of Independence, each of the thirteen States proceeded to exercise its separate sovereignty; adopted for itself a Constitution, and appointed officers for the administration of government in all its departments-- Legislative, Executive and Judicial. For purposes of defense, they united their arms and their counsels; and, in 1778, they entered into a League known as the Articles of Confederation, whereby they agreed to entrust the administration of their external relations to a common agent, known as the Congress of the United States, expressly declaring, in the first Article "that each State retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence, and every power, jurisdiction and right which is not, by this Confederation, expressly delegated to the United States in Congress assembled."



Under this Confederation the war of the Revolution was carried on, and on the 3rd of September, 1783, the contest ended, and a definite Treaty was signed by Great Britain, in which she acknowledged the independence of the Colonies in the following terms: "ARTICLE 1-- His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz: New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be FREE, SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that he treats with them as such; and for himself, his heirs and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."



Thus were established the two great principles asserted by the Colonies, namely: the right of a State to govern itself; and the right of a people to abolish a Government when it becomes destructive of the ends for which it was instituted. And concurrent with the establishment of these principles, was the fact, that each Colony became and was recognized by the mother Country a FREE, SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDENT STATE.



In 1787, Deputies were appointed by the States to revise the Articles of Confederation, and on 17th September, 1787, these Deputies recommended for the adoption of the States, the Articles of Union, known as the Constitution of the United States.



The parties to whom this Constitution was submitted, were the several sovereign States; they were to agree or disagree, and when nine of them agreed the compact was to take effect among those concurring; and the General Government, as the common agent, was then invested with their authority.



If only nine of the thirteen States had concurred, the other four would have remained as they then were-- separate, sovereign States, independent of any of the provisions of the Constitution. In fact, two of the States did not accede to the Constitution until long after it had gone into operation among the other eleven; and during that interval, they each exercised the functions of an independent nation.



By this Constitution, certain duties were imposed upon the several States, and the exercise of certain of their powers was restrained, which necessarily implied their continued existence as sovereign States. But to remove all doubt, an amendment was added, which declared that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people. On the 23d May , 1788, South Carolina, by a Convention of her People, passed an Ordinance assenting to this Constitution, and afterwards altered her own Constitution, to conform herself to the obligations she had undertaken.



Thus was established, by compact between the States, a Government with definite objects and powers, limited to the express words of the grant. This limitation left the whole remaining mass of power subject to the clause reserving it to the States or to the people, and rendered unnecessary any specification of reserved rights.



We hold that the Government thus established is subject to the two great principles asserted in the Declaration of Independence; and we hold further, that the mode of its formation subjects it to a third fundamental principle, namely: the law of compact. We maintain that in every compact between two or more parties, the obligation is mutual; that the failure of one of the contracting parties to perform a material part of the agreement, entirely releases the obligation of the other; and that where no arbiter is provided, each party is remitted to his own judgment to determine the fact of failure, with all its consequences.



In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.



The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."



This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.



The same article of the Constitution stipulates also for rendition by the several States of fugitives from justice from the other States.



The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.



The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."



These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.



We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.



For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.



This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.



On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.



The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.



Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation, and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that public opinion at the North has invested a great political error with the sanction of more erroneous religious belief.



We, therefore, the People of South Carolina, by our delegates in Convention assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America, is dissolved, and that the State of South Carolina has resumed her position among the nations of the world, as a separate and independent State; with full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do.



Adopted December 24, 1860



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#209016 - 12/27/06 05:15 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
I'm taking the lack of response to mean everyone is groovy with the size of the federal gubmint these days.

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#209017 - 12/27/06 05:38 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Uomo Grassissimo!! Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 14755
Loc: Busy downloading [LEGALLY!]
OR

Enough people died the 1st time.



Sam Watkins 'Company Aytch': "Rich Man's War, Poor Man's Fight"
_________________________
Amo i Gemelli!! wink

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#209018 - 12/27/06 05:41 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
Had the catalyst been different the outcome might have been as well. It's similar to trying to support Rob Black as some kind of spokesman for free speech.

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#209019 - 12/27/06 06:42 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Y'all down theah in Texas have done got evin stevin with us damnyankees and taught us a lessin 'bout messin' with Texas by cursin' us with George Walker Bush. We are sorry about 'fringin' on y'all's sovrinty so y'all kin take y'all's and Crawford village idiot back any time y'all want, y'heah?

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#209020 - 12/27/06 07:01 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Da Burglar Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 5750
Loc: ATLANTIC CITY
HUrrah! Hurrah!
For Southern Rights We Are!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag
Which bears a single star!



Ah heck Bornyo, you know where I "stand" on this whole issue/topic. I may have been born in New England and have spent a meaningful chunk of my life in California, but I am a true Southern Knight at heart.

About this point in time, someone should be looking for a crippled KKK picture to post along with a statement about Da Burglar being a racist. Well, I actually am a "racist"....I RACE my wheelchair all the time, especially up here in Northern California!

_________________________
Are you gonna eat that?

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#209021 - 12/27/06 07:02 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
This is sort of the crux of the matter:
Quote:

By this Constitution, certain duties were imposed upon the several States, and the exercise of certain of their powers was restrained, which necessarily implied their continued existence as sovereign States. But to remove all doubt, an amendment was added, which declared that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people. On the 23d May , 1788, South Carolina, by a Convention of her People, passed an Ordinance assenting to this Constitution, and afterwards altered her own Constitution, to conform herself to the obligations she had undertaken.



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#209022 - 12/27/06 07:05 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Willie D Offline

Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 9184
Works for me, can we also buy the women from that "Firm Workout" video before you secede?


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#209023 - 12/27/06 07:10 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
Burg I do know where you stand and I was hoping you might have something to say on the subject. I can't defend slavery, and won't. It was a different, and fucked up way of looking at people that I don't understand. There was a lot we didn't know then.

But what was happening then is similar to the feds today telling Texas they won't help them enforce the southern border and requiring Texas to solely foot the bill for all the illegals slipping into the country. The US Federal government has grown unfettered ever since.

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#209024 - 12/27/06 08:29 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Uomo Grassissimo!! Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 14755
Loc: Busy downloading [LEGALLY!]
Boryno, there are good reasons to limit government but crying "secession" is like saying "I hate black people"

Though I am a bit of a Federalist at heart I OPPOSE AS UNCONSTITUTIONAL any unfunded mandate upon any state, city or locality.

But, you listed an act that wasted the live and property of thousands. And, "secession" is a "red flag". The problem is the reference to South Carolina's Secession which can be masked any way you want but its de facto secession based on protecting slavery as an economic system. THE ENTIRE COUNTRY WAS RACIST, NOT JUST THE SOUTH. But to employ whites, among other things, the North wanted the new territory to have free labor. We need not drag on all the facts for my point...

It's like when the battle flag comes out. The only reason that the battleflag is hated is because of what the idiots did after the war - people, groups, states used it as a symbol when they attacked blacks, jews, catholics, etc.

You think the common idiot who can id the battleflag knows that it wasn't the flag of the CSA?

During one of the battles over the flag where racists on both sides - black & white - in my union were at each others throats I purchased the "Stars & Bars". I asked the blacks if they would mind the flag and they asked what it was but did not erupt in anger. The white who saw this jew traitor taking to the blacks denounced the flag out of hand with no knowledge of its relevence.

No one knew. It has no emotional baggage in America.

"Secession" -- like the battleflag -- and has unwanted baggage.


So Americans - who in general HATE big government [until they want something] - cringe from the mention of 'secession' or anything that would group them as ignorant racists. That's the baggage.


My best friend and I have been trying to come up with a Constitution to replace this one since the government is just adversarial and wasteful.


Post something looking for a dialogue on a redesign/restructure maybe you'll get more input. I certainly would love to hear ideas!!! The government must evolve or die!!

I'm a bit manic today so forgive my blathering ...

_________________________
Amo i Gemelli!! wink

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#209025 - 12/27/06 08:49 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
If you think I'm seriously crying out for "secession now!" you need to reconsider.

I made the post because it's often overlooked. It's forgotten that it happened on Christmas Eve. Revisionists of all stripes try to rewrite the causes. If you read the Articles, the argument is clear that South Carolina acted within her constitutional rights. I think the document itself is as succint a historical document as you'll find.

I don't have a problem with the Constitution as written. I'm not interested in writing a new one and think the exercise is futile to attempt. My position is the Constitution wasn't honored at that time because it was distasteful in the north to do so. That's not a good enough reason, but might made right.

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#209026 - 12/27/06 11:19 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
jamesn Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 6005
Loc: travieso capital management an...
unreal, i want to be bipolar. it sounds fun.
Quote:



My best friend and I have been trying to come up with a Constitution to replace this one




_________________________
"She has no waist, no arse...an interesting face...but all we are really worshipping is two bags of silicone"

Martin Amis "honoring" katie price with a character bearing some of her traits

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#209027 - 12/28/06 02:00 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Each state, including South Carolina, was bound to perpetual Union not only by the Constitution, but even by the previous Articles of Confederation.

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#209028 - 12/28/06 05:36 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
Quote:

Each state, including South Carolina, was bound to perpetual Union not only by the Constitution, but even by the previous Articles of Confederation.




prove it.

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#209029 - 12/28/06 05:43 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Honest Abe and Sam Grant and their boys in blue proved it for me, and Bobby Lee was forced to agree at a place called Appomattox Court House deep in the heart of ole Virginny.

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#209030 - 12/28/06 05:50 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
That doesn't prove the legality of your claim, put up or shut up.

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#209031 - 12/28/06 06:54 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD

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#209032 - 12/28/06 07:09 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
Where does it say the state does not retain the right to withdraw from the union?

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#209033 - 12/28/06 07:49 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
Da Burglar Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 5750
Loc: ATLANTIC CITY
Quote:

Honest Abe and Sam Grant and their boys in blue proved it for me, and Bobby Lee was forced to agree at a place called Appomattox Court House deep in the heart of ole Virginny.




The fact that the surrender took place at Appomattox itself proves that the South NEVER conceded/agreed that its claims were wrong or that its cause was empty and false. Lee was trying to get away to continue the fight when he was overtaken and trapped at Appomattox. The South admitted NOTHING about its cause or reasons for struggling for its independence after the formal MILITARY surrender. In fact, legally, there is much to substantiate the South's position, the Confederacy's basis for existing and right for "independence" (or, that is, existence as its own sovereign nation.)

Lee was desperately trying to shake loose of Grant/Meade and the Grand Army of the Potomac which had kept him bound and tied to Richmond-Petersburg and its trenches of death since August of 1864. After the battle of Five Forks on April 1, 1865, when Pickett was remiss and off attending a Shad Bake and left the remnants of 5 brigades to weather a overwhelming attack by Sheridan, the southern defenses collapsed...but Lee actually saw this as a blessing in disguise because it allowed him to finally abandon the hopeless position defending Richmond and gave him and his army the 'hope' anyway, of once again being on the move and possibly drawing the Yankees into some trap in the future. Lee wanted to hook up with Joseph Johnston's Army in North Carolina and combined together would allow him to field an army once again of about 70,000 men, which he intended to throw against Sherman's force marching up from the North/South Carolina border. The hope being that the south could show the North that the cost in time, money and lives to subjugate it was prohibitive, and thus gain the South some type of negotiated peace, or a stalemate, and thus preserve the confederacy's independence.
_________________________
Are you gonna eat that?

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#209034 - 12/28/06 08:20 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Because the Articles of Confederation created a Perpetual Union.

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#209035 - 12/28/06 08:36 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
Quote:

Because the Articles of Confederation created a Perpetual Union.




Where does it say the state doesn't have the right withdraw from the union?

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#209036 - 12/28/06 09:11 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
If you go through the entire linked document entitled Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union to where that document is signed, then you will see that authorized signatories bound each of the states, including South Carolina to the Union in perpetuity.

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#209037 - 12/28/06 09:30 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
Quote:

If you go through the entire linked document entitled Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union to where that document is signed, then you will see that authorized signatories bound each of the states, including South Carolina to the Union in perpetuity.




No place in that statement do the words remove the right of the state to withdraw from the union. The states would have never even ratified this document if it stated this.

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#209038 - 12/28/06 09:57 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
There is no right to secede from a Perpetual Union.

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#209039 - 12/28/06 10:11 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
Quote:

There is no right to secede from a Perpetual Union.





Where does the document state that, or is this something you are just assuming?

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#209040 - 12/28/06 10:20 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Each state, by and through its duly authorized signatories bound their respective state to a document entitled Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, and the final paragraph of said document, just above the signatures, states that the Union is to be perpetual and that each state has pledged itself, through its authorized representatives, to belong to this Perpetual Union.

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#209041 - 12/28/06 10:41 AM Re: Today is Secession Day
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
And it makes no mention of the lack of a right for a state to withdraw. Anything not directly mentioned in a contract or other legal document is open to interpretation. Open to interpretation requires arbitration, in this case at the point of gun. So what you're saying is might makes right.

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#209042 - 12/28/06 11:15 AM PROOF THAT SECESSION WAS "LEGAL"
Uomo Grassissimo!! Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 14755
Loc: Busy downloading [LEGALLY!]
PROOF THAT SECESSION WAS "LEGAL"

CAVEAT: I OPPOSE SECESSION and would have fought against it based upon my theory you cannot have stable Government if an unhappy state can just take its ball and go home. With that argument an unhappy city could leave a state. And every happy citizen could make his own damn country. You have a network of “one man rule” not a democracy. [Thus saith the Emperor Fatman! Ruler of All He Surveys!]

At present, secession is NOT LEGAL under the Constitution by tradition and understanding. Though not codified in the document itself, it was settled on the battlefield when the CSA army agreed to return to the union. And before get your panties in a bunch, there are more than several laws though not codified are supported by ongoing tradition and pragmatism – tax exemption for religious organizations won on such a claim. And of course the State of West Virginia, which was ripped without permission from Virginia while the Union argument had been that Virginia was still part of the USA. Even after the war, it was not returned.

BUT the CSA army and populace agreeing to abide by a rule DOES NOT mean the these American citizens cannot continue to disagree or fight their beliefs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They can strive to change this by legislation, by appointing judges with their viewpoint, or, if the political nonsense is to be avoided, Constitutional Amendment.

That said:

THE SIMPLE PROOF OF THE LEGALITY OF SECESSION IN THE AMERICAN MIND OF 1860


The simple proof for supporters of secession is that they never brought Jefferson Davis to trial. He wanted one. The problem was what if the Court found South Carolina correct!?! Good chance given that the Southerners Justices who remained “loyal” - in theory - dominated the Court. Once the court rule: LEGALITY!!

FACTUAL BASIS OF THEIR FEAR

When the States signed the Constitution they were more like the EU – little self-sustaining entities that had little to do with each other. They each thought of themselves as little countries who bounded together for their own benefit in certain area AND THOSE AREAS ONLY [thus Bornyo’s pertinent quote of the Constitution].

States have almost gone to war several times.

New York and the New Hampshire “Green Mountain Boys” over the area east of Lake Champlain. Settled by creating the 14th State [Vermont = green mountain].

Pennsylvania and Connecticut argued over the land to west of Pennsylvania, which had been assigned to Connecticut by colonial charter as its “Western Reserve”. Thus Ohio.

Michigan and Ohio over the city of Toledo. Michigan got the U.P. – that odd jut of land north of Wisconsin – for relinquishing its claim.

How could they even think of a war if not as separate entities?


SECESSION WAS A NEW ENGLAND INVENTION AND THEORY NOT SOUTHERN.

The citizens of what would be Vermont attempted to secede in the middle of the Revolution.

Massachusetts threatened secession in 1803 over the unconstitutionality of the Louisiana Purchase [another “uncodified” precedent that was adopted!].

New England Federalists were angry when the war they so stridently fought to start was cutting in to the ol’ pocketbook. When the rest of the country complained about New England States SELLING ARMS TO BRITISH AND CANADIAN FORCES in the middle of the War of 1812 they decided to act in their own "treasonous" interests.

Federalists from Massachusetts [which included Maine at the time], Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Vermont formed the “Hartford Convention” to in 1814. They drafted a list of “demands” with the threat of secession – the same secession that South Carolina would claim when it left the Union in 1860!!!!!!!!


The argument that "Articles of Confederation" creating a "Perpetual Union" has dubious validity in the face of its replacement by the Constitution. This doubt grow greater when so many of the original states who questioned the CSA raised the secession "banner" when it suited their own purposes...

QE mother-fucking D!!!




But AGAIN I do and would have opposed it...
_________________________
Amo i Gemelli!! wink

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#209043 - 12/28/06 11:28 AM Re: PROOF THAT SECESSION WAS "LEGAL"
Soopergrizz Offline
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Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 3724
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You and Da Burglar should get together for a play-date.

You bring the legs, he'll bring the downers.
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#209044 - 12/23/08 01:46 PM Secession Day is tomorrow.
Bornyo Offline
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
Uncork your bourbon whiskey and slaughter a hog. It's time to remember our fallen forebears.

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#209045 - 12/24/08 07:22 AM Re: Secession Day is tomorrow.
Bluecipher Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 5096
Loc:
Time for them to try again. I like a good slaughter. Perhaps Atlanta can burn again.
_________________________
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Mild Mannered Minion
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I feel the pull on the rope, let me off at the rainbow
-Anyway, Genesis

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#209046 - 12/24/08 07:25 AM Re: Secession Day is tomorrow.
have2cit Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
Atlanta is full of black people, why do you hate black people so much?

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#209047 - 12/24/08 12:33 PM Re: Secession Day is tomorrow.
Bluecipher Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 5096
Loc:
Like Sherman, I won't discriminate. God take them 'all, black and white.
_________________________
-------------------
Mild Mannered Minion
-------------------
I feel the pull on the rope, let me off at the rainbow
-Anyway, Genesis

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#209048 - 12/24/08 04:04 PM Re: Secession Day is tomorrow.
Uomo Grassissimo!! Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 14755
Loc: Busy downloading [LEGALLY!]
Wow. Two years have past. I'm much less hated now. I think its mostly the shorter posts.
_________________________
Amo i Gemelli!! wink

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#209049 - 12/24/08 06:09 PM Re: Secession Day is tomorrow.
Gunker Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
Quote:

Uncork your bourbon whiskey and slaughter a hog. It's time to remember our fallen forebears.




Bourbon's from Kentucky and the Union can get hogs from the OTHER Carolina's hog farms.

Secede if you want; who needs ya.

(or is that ya'all?)

_________________________
"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.

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#209050 - 12/25/08 03:29 AM Re: Secession Day is tomorrow.
Da Burglar Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 5750
Loc: ATLANTIC CITY
Quote:

Time for them to try again. I like a good slaughter. Perhaps Atlanta can burn again.





General John bell Hood, CSA, is actually the one who FIRST set fire to Atlanta, as he retreated out and abandoned the city in his care, he meant to destroy the ammunition and stores to keep them out of Yankee hands. Fire, however, has a tendency to spread, and back in 1864, fire codes and prevention were kinda low on the priority list. Made for one helluva Fourth of July in September though...

General Hood was both crippled (no leg, and one crippled arm) and toally zonked on painkillers (Laudanum)...I could easily see myself in his position. But judging from my Chess prowess, I'd have been a better strategist.

Cheers, Marse Bornyo.
_________________________
Are you gonna eat that?

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#209051 - 12/25/08 02:49 PM Re: Secession Day is tomorrow.
Uomo Grassissimo!! Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 14755
Loc: Busy downloading [LEGALLY!]
Quote:

Quote:

Time for them to try again. I like a good slaughter. Perhaps Atlanta can burn again.





General John bell Hood, CSA, is actually the one who FIRST set fire to Atlanta, as he retreated out and abandoned the city in his care, he meant to destroy the ammunition and stores to keep them out of Yankee hands. Fire, however, has a tendency to spread, and back in 1864, fire codes and prevention were kinda low on the priority list. Made for one helluva Fourth of July in September though...

General Hood was both crippled (no leg, and one crippled arm) and toally zonked on painkillers (Laudanum)...I could easily see myself in his position. But judging from my Chess prowess, I'd have been a better strategist.

Cheers, Marse Bornyo.




In Atlanta, Hood destroyed the city.

In Nashville, Hood destroyed his army.


For years I thought Hood only had 1 arm because Sam Watkins mistakenly said he did in "Company Aytch":

"I was at General Hood's headquarters. He was much agitated and affected, pulling his hair with his one hand (he had but one), and crying like his heart would break. I pitied him, poor fellow. I asked him for a wounded furlough, and he gave it to me. I never saw him afterward. I always loved and honored him, and will ever revere and cherish his memory. He gave his life in the service of his country, and I know today he wears a garland of glory beyond the grave, where Justice says "well done," and Mercy has erased all his errors and faults."


You can download the book since it's in the public domain.

<<Here, for example>>
_________________________
Amo i Gemelli!! wink

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#209052 - 12/25/08 11:44 PM Re: Secession Day is tomorrow.
Dean Wormer Offline
Pervert

Registered: 08/05/05
Posts: 2116
Loc: Faber College
My great-great-great grandpappy chased your great-great-great grandpappy out of Carolina with a cornstalk.
_________________________
It was a wonderful community with some very enjoyable members. But the vast majority were like German housewives circa 1943 prenteding that horrib;le smell wafting through their open windowsd was just the neighbors having a cookout..--Windsock

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#209053 - 12/24/09 05:55 PM Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
It's the most won-der-ful time of the year...

My respect to those brave enough to stand up to an oppressive government acting unconstitutionally..

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#209054 - 12/24/09 08:17 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Actually, then President James Buchanan held that secession was illegal and unconstitutional, and once more with feeling, the Union was intended to be perpetual and no single state or group of states had any legal right to leave our perpetual Union. A Christmas Eve toast to my Indiana ancestors who fought for the Union, and helped defeat the secessionist traitors.

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#209055 - 12/24/09 08:30 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
Indiana? Haha! Indiana really played a big part in the war of northern aggression.

You harp on the Articles of Confederation but that document was superceded by the US Constitution, and it's amendments.

Grow up, boy. Read the rest of the book.

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#209056 - 12/24/09 08:36 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
You ought to read the books about Vicksburg (where we severed the confederacy into two parts), Missionary Ridge (where your beloved rebel army broke and ran like cowards), and Sherman's March through Georgia. My peeps were there, boy. BTW the Constitution was intended to strengthen the perpetual Union created by the Articles of Confederation. A fialure to comprehend these basic facts are among the lamentable consequences of the dumbing down of America.

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#209057 - 12/24/09 08:45 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
Bornyo Offline
Porn Jesus

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 10321
A fialure (sic) to understand that the Constitution cleaned up and corrected the loose ends left by the Articles of Confederation just shows your ignorance. Why else would the States want to clarify their sovereignty?

1 Corinthians 13, Verse 11

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#209058 - 12/24/09 08:57 PM Re: Today is Secession Day
ivorenginedriver Offline
Porn Fucking Master

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Your thesis that the Constitution repealed the perpetual Union is most peculiar. Even pro-Southerners such as James Buchanan and Stephen Douglas rejected this notion. Perhaps you are correct, and Lincoln, Buchanan, Douglas, and General Winfield Scott of Virginia among many others, are wrong. Three cheers and a tiger for General Scott, General George (The Rock of Chickamauga) Thomas, General Montgomery Meigs, and many other southerners whose loyalty to the Union facilitated the eventual quashing of the rebellion of the traitors.

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