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#199218 - 11/02/06 12:03 PM
Kerry's botched truth
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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"You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq." "The absolute key for the Army is a high-school diploma" Regardless of the romantic notions about the military we choose to cling to in times of war, the plain truth is... the military, as a social institution, has always been staffed primarily by members of the lower class, and has existed to enforce national strategic and economic interests to the disproportionate benefit of the upper class. The ruling class recruiting soldiers from amongst the poor by arousing specious fears of foreign threats to the homeland, in order to secure power and wealth for themselves is historical banality. But it's ironic that it took a liberal ( traditionally chided by the right for being too pc ), suffering from a sudden attack of honesty, to lay bare an unvarnished if unpleasant truth. It seems that even a career politician has a limit to how much bullshit he can shovel out in a lifetime. In a brief moment of professional suicide, Sen. Kerry ceased to be a politician and spoke as a man weary of war and disgusted by an administration that dishonors the soldiers every day with a farcical military escapade. And yes, there are highly educated men and women in the military. But we all know that Kerry wasn't talking about West Point and Anapolis cadets, or the fortunate sons of the Citadel who'll be kept out of harms way until they can come back home to a lucrative civilian career. He was talking about the kids supplying the blood. How many of those kids could even find Iraq on a map when they walked into the recruiting office? Or for that matter, can our commander-in-chief find it?! ...And now I look forward to being labeled an unpatriotic hippy for not wanting kids to die for no reason. 
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"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#199219 - 11/02/06 01:50 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 6557
Loc: 2004 - the glory days
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I'm not gonna question your patriotism, just your sanity and intelligence. Just because you want to believe Kerry and his idea that our military is "dumb" doesn't make it so. In fact every study out there proves the opposite. Military personnel reflect the rest of society in terms of education and intelligence. 99.9 percent of the enlisted force have at least a high school education. 49.2 percent of officers have advanced or professional degrees; 39.4 percent have master's degrees; 8.5 percent have professional degrees; and 1.3 percent have doctorate degrees. Learn the facts you elitist snob before you listen to an antimilitary New England limousine liberal.
study
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"You are the worst poster in xpt yet I can't stop talking about you" - smelly monkey
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#199220 - 11/02/06 02:20 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Quote:
I'm not gonna question your patriotism, just your sanity and intelligence. Just because you want to believe Kerry and his idea that our military is "dumb" doesn't make it so. 99.9 percent of the enlisted force have at least a high school education. 49.2 percent of officers have advanced or professional degrees; 39.4 percent have master's degrees; 8.5 percent have professional degrees; and 1.3 percent have doctorate degrees.
Of course I expected you to mischaracterise what I said King. And I'm sure Phlog won't be far behind you.
If you reread what I wrote, you may notice that at no point did I refer to military personnel as "dumb". Nor, for that matter, did Sen. Kerry in his remarks. That sort of non sequitur is typical of conservative arguments.
My point was that historically the rank and file of military combatants has always been made up primarily of people from lower class backgrounds, and people of limited educational and professional opportunities. That's not an insult... it's just a plain, simple fact my friend.
A High School diploma? The reason 99.9% of enlisted personnel have a diploma is because it's required . You should be asking yourself why the number isn't 100%! And anyone who's ever served in the military will tell you there's a long established caste system, and that the roster of high ranking officers contains a disproportionately high number of USMA, USNA, and USAFA grads.
You wanna play the statistics game? Let's go down the list of casualties and find out how many of those kids had advanced degrees in engineering, but decided to leave their lucrative careers in order to "defend freedom" in Iraq. Ya wanna? Get real.
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"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#199221 - 11/02/06 02:47 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 7888
Loc: Carpathian Mountains
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Oh and they couldnt become cops, plumbers or fireman ( none of which requires a college degree and yet full of intelligent men). It is this elitist view of the left that people of lower class are forced into the military because they have no other choice is clearly Bosh. Our military and the personnel that staff it is one of the best if not the best in the world.
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"Some say I'm lazy and others say that is just me.
Some say I'm crazy, I guess I'll always be"
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#199222 - 11/02/06 03:05 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 6557
Loc: 2004 - the glory days
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Kerry absolutely implied that our military is stupid. That is what this entire uproar is about and is the reason he has since apologized. " make an effort to be smart...If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq." Translation - if you're not smart you join the military and go to Iraq. Quote:
military combatants has always been made up primarily of people of limited educational and professional opportunities.
How can you possibly make this sweeping generalization and know it to be true? Limited educational and professional opportunities? Limited how? One day they can't find job in the newspaper or take some classes at the local Com.College so out of desperation they decide to join the military as a means of last resort. More Arrogance William. You paint the military as though its full of the hopeless, hapless, dregs of society that have no other option than to join. That sounds more like the streets of LA than the military.
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the roster of high ranking officers contains a disproportionately high number of USMA, USNA, and USAFA grads.
No shit dumbass, that's exactly what the military academies are designed for. They are the ones with the most training and experience. They are the best of the best, the leaders.
Quote:
Let's go down the list of casualties and find out how many of those kids had advanced degrees in engineering, but decided to leave their lucrative careers in order to "defend freedom" in Iraq.
Go ahead and do it. I bet you'd be surprised and might just actually upset your arrogant attitude towards our military. All those people that serve in the military reserves have jobs you know and you can bet they aren't the unmotivated out of work welfare slobs you seem to think they are.
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"You are the worst poster in xpt yet I can't stop talking about you" - smelly monkey
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#199223 - 11/02/06 03:41 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Registered Sex Offender
Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
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Quote:
...And now I look forward to being labeled an unpatriotic hippy for not wanting kids to die for no reason.
I won't label you an unpatriotic hippy. I will simply tell you you're wrong. You have no idea what kind of people serve in the military or what their motivations for service are. I am almost certain you never served even one day in the military. Am I right?
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"Offer them what they secretly want and they of course immediately become panic-stricken."
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#199225 - 11/02/06 04:39 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Kurt Lackwood's Fluffer
Registered: 12/09/05
Posts: 1291
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i was watching conan last night and he was joking about the statement kerry said, however i didn't know what the actual quote was. however i was sure it would be the subject of a thread here on xpt today and lo and behold here it is. so thanks guys for keeping me informed- fair and balanced.
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#199226 - 11/02/06 04:42 PM
Re: Kerry fucked it up
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Porn Fucking Master
Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 3576
Loc: Baltimore, MD
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Kerry fucked it up by dropping an "us" from the sentence. He meant to say that Bush got us stuck in Iraq.
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#199228 - 11/02/06 04:55 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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@
Porn Jesus
Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 9958
Loc: fortified
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Quote:
"You know, education, if you make the most of it, if you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, uh, you, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq."
"The absolute key for the Army is a high-school diploma"
Regardless of the romantic notions about the military we choose to cling to in times of war, the plain truth is... the military, as a social institution, has always been staffed primarily by members of the lower class, and has existed to enforce national strategic and economic interests to the disproportionate benefit of the upper class. The ruling class recruiting soldiers from amongst the poor by arousing specious fears of foreign threats to the homeland, in order to secure power and wealth for themselves is historical banality. But it's ironic that it took a liberal ( traditionally chided by the right for being too pc ), suffering from a sudden attack of honesty, to lay bare an unvarnished if unpleasant truth.
It seems that even a career politician has a limit to how much bullshit he can shovel out in a lifetime. In a brief moment of professional suicide, Sen. Kerry ceased to be a politician and spoke as a man weary of war and disgusted by an administration that dishonors the soldiers every day with a farcical military escapade.
And yes, there are highly educated men and women in the military. But we all know that Kerry wasn't talking about West Point and Anapolis cadets, or the fortunate sons of the Citadel who'll be kept out of harms way until they can come back home to a lucrative civilian career. He was talking about the kids supplying the blood. How many of those kids could even find Iraq on a map when they walked into the recruiting office? Or for that matter, can our commander-in-chief find it?!
...And now I look forward to being labeled an unpatriotic hippy for not wanting kids to die for no reason.
Jeesh.When was the last time you did bong hits with Bernie and Willie?
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i just lock, load, and regret. - jamesn
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#199231 - 11/02/06 05:58 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Since we brought up statistics, here are just a few that might elucidate my point:
According to the US DOD, 1.85% of military recruits in 2005 nad no high school credentials. 1.37% were Seniors. 7.03% had a GED. 82.66% were high school grads ( clearly the bulk of our fighting force ). And only 5.87% had credentials greater than a high school diploma, with 1.23% holding an associates degree.
Just for your own education you should peruse the obituaries of some of these kids. Their stories are all remarkably similar. They are, by and large, working class kids fresh out of high school, and attending Jr Colleges at the time of their enlistment. They weren't Harvard and MIT grads who just decided the military would be more "fun" than that 6-figure job at daddy's law firm. Most of them were working class, and saw the military as an opportunity to improve their economic situation. Unlike some of you apparently, I don't equate formal education with intelligence. I think the military has some of the brightest, most ambitious kids in America... which makes their needless deaths all the more tragic.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#199232 - 11/02/06 06:42 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Registered Sex Offender
Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
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Quote:
But we all know that Kerry wasn't talking about West Point and Anapolis cadets, or the fortunate sons of the Citadel who'll be kept out of harms way until they can come back home to a lucrative civilian career.
It's Annapolis and they are midshipmen. I'm not sure what you mean by "fortunate sons of the Citadel." Do you know anything about the Citadel? This fortunate son of the Citadel was not kept out of harms way. Good officers lead from the front as I did in the sandbox in Gulf War I. The Citadel has 12 KIA to date, in Afghanistan and Iraq. The first KIA in Iraq was a Citadel grad and Marine LT. We lost another one just last week in Anbar. They served honorably. You didn't serve at all. Don't speak ill of those who are better than you.
_________________________
"Offer them what they secretly want and they of course immediately become panic-stricken."
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#199233 - 11/02/06 07:12 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Porn Icon
Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 3440
Loc: Jaundice Town
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It is amazing to see the XPT Far Right Pile On in motion! It is so similar to the Echo Chamber in real life. If you think that Kerry was dumb enough to make a joke that degraded the Army then you prolly think the Mainstream Media that blew it way out of proportion is Liberal. It was hilarious seeing Tony Snow with his mock indignation explain how he couldn't see how the word "Us" could have possibly fit into the sentence ... it was a nice distraction from the fact that the US Army stood down from a major operation in Sadr City to find a missing US serviceman that was kidnapped in that area all because the Iraq leader demanded it. Sad lil October Surprise actually...I was expecting ( and still am) an attack on Iran before Nov 7. We are conveniently war gaming with all we need right in the Persian Gulf right now! Quote:
Just for your own education you should peruse the obituaries of some of these kids.
These arent just kids dying...There are a large number of older soldiers dying too.
then there is this...
(November 01, 2006) -- The true stories of how American troops, killed in Iraq, actually died keep spilling out this week. On Tuesday, we explored the case of Kenny Stanton Jr., murdered last month by our allies, the Iraqi police, though the military didn’t make that known at the time. Now we learn that one of the first female soldiers killed in Iraq died by her own hand after objecting to interrogation techniques used on prisoners.
She was Army specialist Alyssa Peterson, 27, a Flagstaff, Ariz., native serving with C Company, 311th Military Intelligence BN, 101st Airborne. Peterson was an Arabic-speaking interrogator assigned to the prison at our air base in troubled Tal-Afar in northwestern Iraq. According to official records, she died on Sept. 15, 2003, from a “non-hostile weapons discharge.â€
She was only the third American woman killed in Iraq, so her death drew wide press attention. A “non-hostile weapons discharge†leading to death is not unusual in Iraq, often quite accidental, so this one apparently raised few eyebrows. The Arizona Republic, three days after her death, reported that Army officials “said that a number of possible scenarios are being considered, including Peterson's own weapon discharging, the weapon of another soldier discharging, or the accidental shooting of Peterson by an Iraqi civilian.â€
But in this case, a longtime radio and newspaper reporter named Kevin Elston, unsatisfied with the public story, decided to probe deeper in 2005, "just on a hunch," he told E&P today. He made "hundreds of phone calls" to the military and couldn't get anywhere, so he filed a Freedom of Information Act request. When the documents of the official investigation of her death arrived, they contained bombshell revelations. Here’s what the Flagstaff public radio station, KNAU, where Elston now works, reported yesterday:
“Peterson objected to the interrogation techniques used on prisoners. She refused to participate after only two nights working in the unit known as the cage. Army spokespersons for her unit have refused to describe the interrogation techniques Alyssa objected to. They say all records of those techniques have now been destroyed. ...".
She was was then assigned to the base gate, where she monitored Iraqi guards, and sent to suicide prevention training. “But on the night of September 15th, 2003, Army investigators concluded she shot and killed herself with her service rifle,†the documents disclose.
The Army talked to some of Peterson's colleagues. Asked to summarize their comments, Elston told E&P: "The reactions to the suicide were that she was having a difficult time separating her personal feelings from her professional duties. That was the consistent point in the testimonies, that she objected to the interrogation techniques, without describing what those techniques were."
Elston said that the documents also refer to a suicide note found on her body, which suggested that she found it ironic that suicide prevention training had taught her how to commit suicide. He has now filed another FOIA request for a copy of the actual note.
Peterson's father, Rich Peterson, has said: “Alyssa volunteered to change assignments with someone who did not want to go to Iraq.â€
Peterson, a devout Mormon, had graduated from Flagstaff High School and earned a psychology degree from Northern Arizona University on a military scholarship. She was trained in interrogation techniques at Fort Huachuca in Arizona, and was sent to the Middle East in 2003.
The Arizona Republic article had opened: “Friends say Army Spc. Alyssa R. Peterson of Flagstaff always had an amazing ability to learn foreign languages.
“Peterson became fluent in Dutch even before she went on an 18-month Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints mission to the Netherlands in the late 1990s. Then, she cruised through her Arabic courses at the military's Defense Language Institute in Monterey, Calif., shortly after enlisting in July 2001.
“With that under her belt, she was off to Iraq to conduct interrogations and translate enemy documents.â€
On a “fallen heroes†message board on the Web, Mary W. Black of Flagstaff wrote, "The very day Alyssa died, her Father was talking to me at the Post Office where we both work, in Flagstaff, Ariz., telling me he had a premonition and was very worried about his daughter who was in the military on the other side of the world. The next day he was notified while on the job by two army officers. Never has a daughter been so missed or so loved than she was and has been by her Father since that fateful September day in 2003. He has been the most broken man I have ever seen.â€
An A.W. from Los Angeles wrote: "I met Alyssa only once during a weekend surfing trip while she was at DLI. Although our encounter was brief, she made a lasting impression. We did not know each other well, but I was blown away by her genuine, sincere, sweet nature. I don’t know how else to put it-- she was just nice. ... I was devastated to here of her death. I couldn’t understand why it had to happen to such a wonderful person.â€
Finally, Daryl K. Tabor of Ashland City, Tenn., who had met her as a journalist in Iraq for the Kentucky New Era paper in Hopkinsville: "Since learning of her death, I cannot get the image of the last time I saw her out of my mind. We were walking out of the tent in Kuwait to be briefed on our flights into Iraq as I stepped aside to let her out first. Her smile was brighter than the hot desert sun. Peterson was the only soldier I interacted with that I know died in Iraq. I am truly sorry I had to know any."
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/pressingissues_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003345862
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#199234 - 11/02/06 07:12 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 6557
Loc: 2004 - the glory days
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Hyde you're just a douche, don't you have to go date rape Sierra Sinn or something? Kerry yet again lets his disdain for the military spew from his lips and you're trying to turn this into some kind of bullshit class warfare about the military and Kerry's nuanced meaning behind what he said. Quote:
Most of them were working class, and saw the military as an opportunity to improve their economic situation. Unlike some of you apparently, I don't equate formal education with intelligence. I think the military has some of the brightest, most ambitious kids in America.
Hmmm...very Kerryesque flip from describing them as
Quote:
lower class...the poor...How many of those kids could even find Iraq on a map?
Too dumb to find Iraq on a map, nice one Hyde.
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They weren't Harvard and MIT grads who just decided the military would be more "fun" than that 6-figure job at daddy's law firm.
Someone once said.
Quote:
I don't equate formal education with intelligence
The middle class makes up the bulk of everything in America so it follows that the military is mostly middle class and not Harvard/MIT grads. If someone smart enough to go to MIT etc. wants to join the military they join one of the academies not MIT.
You don't even know what the fuck you are talking about anymore. Go post over at DailyKos or the Huffington Post they need your hate America bullshit more than we do.
_________________________
"You are the worst poster in xpt yet I can't stop talking about you" - smelly monkey
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#199236 - 11/02/06 07:25 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Ed Hardy Wearing Loser
Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 36
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Kerry is a shit bag traitor..always was!! He is gutless on top of it...he does not even have the sack to apologize in public, instead he puts the so called apology on the internet then HE HIDES!!
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#199240 - 11/02/06 08:00 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Gay For Pay
Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 911
Loc: cobra on my left, leopard on m...
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Quote:
Quote:
But we all know that Kerry wasn't talking about West Point and Anapolis cadets, or the fortunate sons of the Citadel who'll be kept out of harms way until they can come back home to a lucrative civilian career.
It's Annapolis and they are midshipmen. I'm not sure what you mean by "fortunate sons of the Citadel." Do you know anything about the Citadel? This fortunate son of the Citadel was not kept out of harms way. Good officers lead from the front as I did in the sandbox in Gulf War I. The Citadel has 12 KIA to date, in Afghanistan and Iraq. The first KIA in Iraq was a Citadel grad and Marine LT. We lost another one just last week in Anbar. They served honorably. You didn't serve at all. Don't speak ill of those who are better than you.
12 KIA huh? Well admittedly, 12 out of 2,800 is a lofty sacrifice. There's a reason the U.S. constitution put the military under civilian control. And at least part of it can be traced to arrogant authoritarians like yourself that fetishize the military, and delude themselves with the belief that our rights and freedoms are somehow a "gift" thanklessly bestowed upon us by a generous military establishment. I'm instantly reminded of that brilliant speech by Nicholson in "A Few Good Men"...
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide , and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
Is that how it is? Well you can make any damn judgement you want about a man's ideas or his choices, but you've got some seriously deluded notions of human life if you think killing or dying for a questionable cause makes one man "better" than another. My God says differently.
_________________________
"We had part of a Slinky - but I straightened it."
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#199241 - 11/02/06 08:07 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 9113
Loc: red dirt state of mind
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Do you have any idea what a fucking vagina you sound like??
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#199242 - 11/02/06 08:14 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Registered Sex Offender
Registered: 07/09/06
Posts: 2362
Loc: St. Louis
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Quote:
12 KIA huh? Well admittedly, 12 out of 2,800 is a lofty sacrifice.
Put it in context. West Point has only a few more KIA than the Citadel, yet West Point commissions far more into the military than does the Citadel. Among those who serve in the military, there are far fewer officers than enlisted, so comparing 12 to 2800 makes little sense. The Citadel's losses have been disproportionately higher than the losses incurred by West Point and Annapolis, and higher than the rate of loss incurred by enlisted soldiers.
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"Offer them what they secretly want and they of course immediately become panic-stricken."
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#199244 - 11/02/06 09:47 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 4268
Loc: Portland
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Much ado about nothing and a desperate attempt to distract from the Iraq debacle, Congressional corruption and complete incompetence from the White House. As to examples of misspeaking and the ensuring furor (or lack thereof): Updated: 11:29 a.m. PT Aug 5, 2004 WASHINGTON - President Bush offered up a new entry for his catalog of “Bushisms†on Thursday, declaring that his administration will “never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people.†Bush misspoke as he delivered a speech at the signing ceremony for a $417 billion defense spending bill. “Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we,†Bush said. “They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.†Don't you remember how the "Liberal Mainstream Media" jumped all over this? No? Because it was obviously a misstatement. Given Shrub's inability to communicate, it was practically a given that he would be unable to complete a speech without saying something incredibly stupid. Kerry does the same thing (because he meanders)....and Fox News goes rabid... 
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"My people (the real Americans- descended from the original Angle-Saxon pioneers)"-Coke S.
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#199245 - 11/02/06 09:53 PM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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Porn Jesus
Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 6557
Loc: 2004 - the glory days
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Palestinian mass murderers and terrorist leaders agree: Vote Democrat."Of course Americans should vote Democrat," Jihad Jaara, a senior member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades terror group and the infamous leader of the 2002 siege of Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity.
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"You are the worst poster in xpt yet I can't stop talking about you" - smelly monkey
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#199246 - 11/03/06 06:17 AM
Re: Kerry's botched truth
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AC Cream Wannabe
Registered: 09/07/03
Posts: 565
Loc: State of Moral Decay
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Hmmm....My oldest son is now serving in Iraq, and he was an honor student in high school. He could have gone to college, he went into the Army instead.
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So how would you describe the graduates of our military academies? Worst of the worse, the followers? My description of academy graduates IMO is a fair judgement. The combination of physical and mental demands put on them is far above any other institute of higher learning in America. It's not elitist when you admire the people you are describing rather than, like yourself, demeaning the people you are speaking of. 
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