College kids getting initated into fraternities go through worse than that. Your just one of those pussy-pillow-biting liberals who gets bent when we don't take shit from someone.

Yeah I hear there's college kids all over the country getting beaten to death and subjected to months of torture and summary executions. No wonder they don't have a frat system here.

I'm one of those ppl who aren't America who get a bit annoyed with yee-hah elements of America who are directly helping send America down the tubes.

"Can" be true is different than well documented "It Is" true. Please don't use the BBC as one of those sources, they lead the pack on anti-americanism.

"True" is a subjective term. Like ppl who til this day still swear Saddam was flying one of the 9/11 planes etc times infinity.

And the BBC is one of the world leaders in objective reporting.

I think its more a case of you looking for American haters through being overly defensive. You hate Europe, you hate arabs, muslims.

Having family in Britain and Australia being linked with Britain extensively I can tell you Britain isn't exactly all that enamoured with America. Another friend you're trying very hard to lose.

Dude, whatever you don't use Micheal Moore as a reference, his "documentry" got punched full of holes.

The reason Fox news sounds different is because they do their own research/reporting instead of falling in step with the other left wing wacko new organizations that have become self appointed to create policy.


Michael Moore is self-serving. I never mentioned him. The CIA themselves have documentary evidence of their dealings with the mujahadeen and Osama. Its no secret. But to you apparently it is. I thought it was pretty commonly accepted fact.

The Cheney story was run as fact by more respectable sources then Moore.

And I say again, anyone who believes anything on FOX is mentally defective. The fact you go so far as to vigoursly defend it explains a lot of why you disagree with me. Its called brain washing. I read left and right wing stuff. But FOX isn't news, its trash TV for the stupid.

Don't know if you guys caught this on the news down under, but a while back a few people got together and crashed some planes into our buildings, killed a bunch of people. Those terrorsts.

If the IRA/ETA decide to crash planes into our building we will ruin their shit just the same.

No, I missed that. Tell me what happened? My point is the terrorist threat is a global industry, and an economy run on the military simply cannot afford to have a constant threat to prop it up.

I say the threat is greatly exaggerated.

Iraq was pretty much a no-go zone for Osama and friends. In fact they hated each other. You would have been better off invading Saudi Arabia.


Maybe, maybe not. I don't hear the fat lady singing. I will admit things are not going well. You ever hear of a battle called "Guadalcana"? It started off badly too.

Have you been watching John Wayne films again?

Its going to get worse and worse. Mark my words. Britain is well and truly getting the shits about Iraq. I saw a report just yesterday that an 8 year SAS (real special forces) veteran of multiple campaigns left the army because he refused to fight with US soldiers who he accused of dozens of illegal acts and seeing and treating Iraiis as untermenshen as well as a doctor who refused to go on his 3rd tour of Iraq for the same reasons. Now if your allies are starting to treat you like that, what does it say for the future in Iraq?

Bad bad bad bad. British soldiers have for a very long time been seen as some of the most professional and disciplined in the world, so for open revolt to be happening that is a barometer of they way things are going downhill.


Not illegal
Many international law experts would disagree.

Again. A few isolated cases. If you keep telling yourself the U.S. military is out to get, you may actually start to believe that. You probably already do.

You obviously do watch FOX. Its all over the international media. As I say even the FBI, Americans, are whinging about torture. Soldiers serving as part of the coalition are saying the same. Dozens of Iraqiis have come forward despite danger of death to confirm it.

It is widespread. And you believe anything else wait say 5 years and see how much comes out about how bad it actually is.

Time is my friend. It will show what I'm saying to be correct.


Terrorists are not covered under the geneva conventions. When I was in the Navy, I carried an ID that stated specifically I was covered under the Geneva Conventions(Aussie Military does to). Quick question for ya? Why are you quick to critisize the U.S. so much for alleged torture. Why don't you critisize Al Queda for it? I haven't seen any U.S. Mil people jumping around with glee after sawing off someones head.

The taliban was the military of Afghanistan. And I'm not expert on international law, but again I'm pretty sure torture is outlawed. In agreements the US is party to.

The US is supposed to be the beacon on the hill for modern democracy, al qaeda as you no doubt think are supposed to be evil camel fuckers. So why don't we stoop to their level?

I'm sure again you'll say pillow biter, but its like a cancer. The lower you go the worse it gets. Isn't that what they want? To destroy your society?

So haven't they already won?

I like how you equate our bombing of civilians with terrorists bombing of civilians. U.S. Mil does everything to avoid collateral damage, terrorists do everything they can to increase it. Feel free to mix in some perspective.

Haha. It does not. Remember the time they took out a city block because Saddam might! have been at a cafe? That's one incident out of hundreds. Just in Iraq.

Ask any non-US soldier, and they'll tell you the safest place to be when fighting with the US is as far away as possible. Their use of ordinance has a reputation amongst soldiers as being overused and misplaced. They kill more of themselves than the enemy. Shoot first, shoot second, shoot third, maybe ask some questions when we get back to base.

And that's again from your allies. Your bossom buddies.

And collateral damage? The British cracked it with the US from the start with their use of weopons indiscriminantly on civilians. They've killed thousands, often for no good reason.

I mean honestly, why don't you just say it? So long as they were only towel heads who cares how many were killed?

I think it will be a much harder decision and task to get Australian and British troops to fight with the Americans again. Well the British, Australia at the moment would send troops to the moon if Bush asked.


Thats comedy right there. Lets list off some of the Euro/UN successes shall we? Balkins, for years we told the Euros it was their problem and they should deal with it. The Euros bickered amongst themselves until B.Clinton said make it happen. Rwanda? Wow!! The way the UN stood up to the challenge and let their own troops get massacred, to say nothing about what happened to the rest of the country. Big success there UN!! When it comes down to it nothing happens in this world until America says make it happen. And then everyone bitches that it took America to make it happen.

Well I can at least partially agree with you there. The only time something gets fixed is when the French, British, Germans, Spanish go and do it by themselves.

The UN are too cheap to send good troops anywhere. So most of the time it ends up being third world troops who are too busy raping and stealing to get anything done.


Not really theats, china and india particurly will begin to have strong economies, in fact they are already growing quickly. Both value trade with the U.S. to start to much of a pissing contest.

Yep, threats. China is building up its military alarmingly. India and China have emerging middle classes and exploding economies that are sucking investment and technology etc away from the US.

So they are huge threats to the US. Huge. In fact they threaten to topple the US as a world power. Its hard to maintain military power when you have a destroyed economy.


I wasn't saying Spain surrendered in WW2. I was comparing how long it took them to surrender in the GWOT versus the time it took the French to surrender in WW2. Yes spain surrendered in GWOT.

OK. But they didn't surrender.

I was aware of the significance of the two places. If Islam views our culture as bad and are deeply offended by being on SA territory(at the Govt of SA request) then they have deep flaws in their culture not ours. If you invite someone into your home, would you not welcome them? BTW we weren't at M/M sites specifically. The bases were pretty far from them(as I understand) it wasn't like we were standing in their shadows.

The US won't even let their arab allies run their ports. Yet its ok for the US to put bases in any country they like.

Asks the Japs, Phillipinos, Saudis, Australians for that matter, Cubans, former Russian republics etc etc etc how they feel about US bases.

The Saudi rulers, pretty much to the chargrin of all saudis, puppets of the Americans, only asked the US in to defend them against a menacing Iraq. Then bugger off. But they never did.

Imagine what America would do if the Palestinians invited the Iranians in to protect them from the Jews.

Oil has everything to do with it(or at least a major part of it). Your job depends on my country getting oil. The U.S. economy drives the global economy(at least into the foreseeable future).
It was sarcasm.


Can you please get your positions straight? First you say that the UN/Europe can handle these problems. Then why don't they? Then you get off a blast about the war in Iraq is an "Illegal invasion". Now you want us to go and whack an African nation? Which is it? Is America is the leader? Or not? America should intervine? Or not? Now you're the one reacting emotionally.

I never said the UN could do anything. And the US has done its equal best to cripple the UN for as long as I can remember anyway, because the UN tells America no-no when she wants to hear "whatever you say, and we'll come along too!. So America tries to cripple Europe, the UN, Russia, China, Latin America etc etc etc for its own ends. Then you whinge about the UN / Europe / every country in the world being useless.

I'm again perhaps being a bit too satirical for you to understand. Again its sarcasm, the pauper's wit as they say.

See, what I'm saying is, and I'll explain it slowly, is that its fine for America to be big and noble when it suits them, but when something 10 times worse is happening its turn a blind eye time. Get it???


The only thing wrong was your use of the word "most", I agreed it was worth it to put a stop to the killing. We just removed the last of our troops about a year ago. Granted they were not having as difficult time as they would in Iraq, but they were only supposed to stay a year. That goes to show sometimes these things take longer than an hour minus comercial breaks.

Well, again I say I think of all the American "interventions" I can think of, it was the most succesful in a number of key areas.


We can get the ones that want to kill us. I'd rather fight them in Iraq than in the streets of New York/Los Angeles. If you have to fight them in the streets of Sydney you have already lost, your just trying to contain the damage. The GWOT must be offensive in nature.

Iraq didn't have an awful lot of terrorists b4 it was invaded. And most of the "terrorists" are in fact formerly mind your own business Iraqiis.

So that's a win isn't it.


GWOT is just a load of shit to justify whatever America feels like doing. Its all just a bunch of chest-beating flag-waving shit.

Fight them? How you going to fight them on the streets?

I think you have been listening too much to Bush and all the other war-mongers. War is profit.

If that is your definition of right then..... Wow... I mean Wow....

Do you even know how many countries there are in Europe? Do you know how many governments are right-wing? Do you know what right-wing means?

You're just stabbing blindly because you hate Europe.

You're quite right. It has become more vicious since the Democrats(thats the left wing) in America were thrown from power.

Democrats left-wing? Hardly these days.

Bush and friends dragged politics in America and around the world to new lows. No new low is too low apparently.

Its actually doing ok. Everybody compares it to the late '90s when everybody became rich during the internet boom. The '90s were an abnormal time, everybody got rich, it was free money. We paid for afterward, but we picked up the pieces and rebuilt it smarter. However, there are no instant millionares anymore.

OK. I don't know enough about it and not interested enough to research it. So I'll take your word for it. Are you a debt based economy like Australia? Are you running a record deficit etc? I'm not sure.

The probs with Katrina were not limited to FEMA. This is how I can tell you adhere to the lefty lib newsites. None of lefty news sites critisized the state govenor/city mayor even though they had specific duties/responsibilities as well. And they dropped the ball as badly as FEMA. Understand I am NOT excuseing FEMA/Bush on this one, I am just saying there is more blame to go around.

Yes they did. They've been heaping shit on Mr Song and Dance man the mayor of New Orleans. At all levels. The governer as well. The mayor, I forget his name, seems like a bit of a snake if you ask me.

So I stick it to anyone who deserves it. And most of them do. But Bush as I say was top of the heap.

Isn't Bush supposed to be the head cheese? And such a disaster shouldn't it be led federally?



I would love to. Seriously. I wanted to go when I was in the Navy, but our ship never made it down there. It takes two extra weeks to get there, plus a few days in port, and another two additional weeks to get to the gulf(thats on top of how long it takes us normally). Theres an Aussie girl you could introduce me to.

You're welcome to come visit me. Seriously if you ever come down.

There's always big ships in Perth anyway. But then there's always long time at see, short time in port type troubles. I'm sure you can imagine.

What is FTA? Is that a free trade agreement? This is actually one of the areas I critisize Bush on. He screwed Poland as well(forgot what they were asking for). People who go with us(and yes the Aussies went with us everywhere, even Vietnam) should get special status.

Yes, that's the FTA. One of the areas you critisize Bush? See, you do love him!

Well, its like a million page document, so no one can model the effect, but anytime a big trading partner trades with a smaller one, its always bad for the smaller one.

And a lot of the stuff in the FTA is a direct threat to Australia. Just one is drugs. We get highly subsidised drugs here. That will be removed piece by piece. In many respects all the good things about Australia will be removed as we become more like America. Healthcare and so on I mean. $70 for a bandaid. A lot of healthcare here is free of subsidised.

Not sure why your bringing this up(it may have something to do with the fact I'm handing you your ass). Everybody is pretty much over the fact that Hamas won(I don't understand why everybody was shocked, I saw it coming a mile off. Just wasn't sure if they could take a majority or not). Most will/should recognoze Hamas as the legit gov't of the Palestians. However, they shouldn't deal with them, because there is that little thing we call "Genocide". That when you swear to wipe out an entire culture of people(in this case jews).


Handing me my arse? I think again you're living in a fantasy.

Everything you've said so far has been "Bush 101" or "because we're the best". No facts, nothing. Just stuff you'd hear off FOX everyday. Nothing balanced. Nothing objective. Give me a "Hell yeah, USA USA USA". That's the reasoning behind everything here.

Condie Rice and Bush and the team have been whining and leaning on other countries about Hamas winning since it happened. So I'm not sure where you've been.

Israel is another country pissed off with the US. The US seems to think it owns Israel. I've seen the fascination a lot of the right in America have with Israel, but I don't think the feeling is shared.

My point about it was that US style democracy will fail in most parts of the world. Especially when ppl know its all crooked, and if against the odds the "bad guys" [bad for the US] get in, then the US will do their best to oust them.

Ask most of Latin America, another part of the world going over to the left. A lot of it is thumbing the nose at Bush treating them like lackets.

Actually bailing out now would make things worse. The last you or I want is the terrorists to think they have a chance of winnning, that more than anything will drive up their recruiting.

That is wrong thinking. So what, stay in Iraq 50, 60, 70 years?

Blowing up muslims and arabs and treating them like dogs is driving up recruiting.

Its just stoking the fires, giving them ammunition, iys a propoganda boom!

We've been out for quite a while. Prior to Iraq War v2.0

O I think you'll find there's still plenty of "military advisors" etc. Not to mention more money-vulture companies than you can waive a stick at.


Reward terrorism, didn't see that one coming from you. Whats next, give medals to mass murderers.

Hey, its only been 60 years. Maybe the Jews would like another 60 years of getting blown up. Super.

I mean I've got this dog that barks. Everytime he barks I bang myself on the head with a hammer.

I can't stop til the dog stops barking. Its the only way he'll learn, and I refuse to give him the satisfaction of stopping hitting myself on the head.

Right on! Good thinking. Great logic. If it hasn't worked after over half a century, try it again for another 50 years!



I just give up. I mean how can ppl be so blind?

Hey, if you're not religious, have you ever had Jehovah's Witnesses come to your door?

Doesn't matter what you say, what evidence you give them, you try to have a philosophical conversation with them, even to explore possibilities, they just shut you down and won't listen?

They get that glazed over brainwashed stare in the eye? Nothing gets through no matter how much evidence you present?

But its been shown Jesus couldn't possibly be born on December 25th. There's irristable proof. Its ok, I'm not saying there isn't a god or Jesus, I mean you've just got to be flexible, pragmatic and logical.

That's not what they've been told, so no matter what, they'll never listen.


Get where I'm coming from? I'd admit Bush was Jesus Christ if I saw enough evidence. I'm quite flexible.

But when you develop a certain rigid dogma, then there is little point saying anything, no matter if you have the videotape, the signed confession, the 1 000 witnesses yada yada yada.


[Rant]
Everybody told us we'd lose WW2, we'd lose the Cold War against the Soviet Union. Now everybody is telling us we're going to lose this one. Not buying it. It will take a long time.
[/Rant]

No one told you you'd lose WW2. The axis was trying to get you in for years. Well not many.

No one said you'd lose the cold war. Well not many. How can a society based on greed beat a society based on communism? Communism was always going to fail, because it goes against basic human nature.


Vietnam: loss. Korea: loss [at the verybest a draw.

Iraq is only going to get worse. How is it going to get better? It just simply can't.

Save this post. And read it again in 5 years. You will see.


Without wishing to go all Rob Longshot on you, since a very early age I've had an entirely boring to others fascination with geo-politics and history. I've studied it, its my hobby, I can't get enough of it. It infuriates others the depth of my banality when it comes to these sorts of things.

I also, unlikes university academic types before you go accusing me, live in the real middle class world most ppl live in. I avoid propoganda and have a very cynical view of anything anyone ever tells me, as I say ppl lie and have agendas.

So I say, from an objective and informed viewpoint as most ppl could possible have, much of what you say is simply going to be proved wrong.

When you actually defend FOX, stick up for Bush almost all the time, it shows exactly where you are coming from. And if you cannot see exactly that, even deep down, then you are kidding yourself.