One or two bad apples don't ruin the whole bunch. The U.S. Military has its fair share of shit heads. If it were Gov't policy to torture/abuse people, somebody/somewhere would have been smart enough to not take pictures.

If you believe that you would believe anything. Ask Karpinski. Ask that guy who names escapes me, Japanese origin I think it is.

If you believe torture is not a routinely used technique by the US military and its agents you are living in la-la land. There is so much evidence.

I mean for fucks sakes, Rummy and friends came out with a document on acceptable uses of torture. Seeing as how we're talking porn a lot of the stuff in the published document would get banned in porn.

Let's not forget the military especially in the states is recruited from the lower classes. No disrespect, but true. The red neck reservists from Virginia were just the tip of the iceberg.

You don't know that. Before you come back with "You don't know it either" line. Keep in mind that terrorists sometimes don't tell the truth. And by "sometimes" I mean never.

There's been lots of media, doco crews from respected and generally unbiased media outlets that have shown as best they can it to be true.

Speaking of Afghanistan, there was also a lot of evidence for a US sponsored massacre [with US troops supervising] of Afghani paramilitary troops putting "taliban" into big trucks, and those that didn't suffocate were shot. It was reported at around 3 000.

Don't forget the taliban was like national service. Serve of we kill your family.


No we didn't love the talibannies. If we loved Osama then why did we try to kill him with cruise missiles?

No disrespect, but here is where your knowledge shows itself to be somewhat flawed.

The US sponsored Osama and the mujahadeen in Afghanistan directly with money and arms against the Russians. There is some evidence they supported Chechen seperatists [muslims] against Russia in Chechnya too. You'll notice the US has gone very quiet on brow-beating the Russians over the genocide happening in Chechnya since 9/11.

Osama and various other US backed muslims were only targetted after 9/11.

There was a big story about Cheney inviting the taliban leadership over for a Texas BBQ to discuss oil pipelines through Afghanistan, a long held goal of many nations, just before 9/11.

So while they were raping and killing their own citizens fine, but all of a sudden they are "terrorists" because they are muslim and live in a country where Osama had set up base.

Again, history can be cruel. One minute America's best friend, the next minute wholesale slaughter of anyone even remotely related to the taliban, even if it was as I say the quasi Afghani national service.


Enough with the Fox news is the republicans etc. etc. etc. Just because you give the Right-wingers a chance to speak in addition to the Left-wingers doesn't mean your a Bush lover. I've seen many of the pundits hammer the Bush Administration pretty hard. In fact they do it much better than most because they stick to facts and logic(something your entire post is devoid of).

You've just shown yourself in the last bit to know nothing of the history behind all this.

So everything you say is pretty much coming from a stance of emotion and hatred.

Have you watched FOX news? How the hell is that anything but comedy? What was the classicly quoted segment? Kerrie skies like a Frenchman?

Its not even propoganda. Its so over the top its hard to believe its not some joke no one appears to be getting.

Facts and logic? O my god! Facts and logic are the last place you're coming from.


You failed to address the point I brought up completely. My point was how do you get terrorists off the street. And don't give the U.N. line, they don't call it the Useless Nations for nothing. If you think the terrorist are going to stop what they are doing because some cop says "Stop in the name of the law" you are more delusional than you may realize.

What terrorists? Where? Terrorism is a bit of a big bad bogeyman. Bush has used it, Blair has used it, Howard has used it all shamelessly for political purposes.

Bad news comes out. Hey, terrorist alert! Run for your lives.

And I know this is going to sound dumb, and you're going to call me a leftie fag communist under the bed pillow biter whatever, but have you ever thought maybe just maybe if you're going to colonise the world ppl might get a touch upset?

I don't see the US dropping too many troops into northern Ireland to fight those terrorist bombing bastards, those micks, the IRA [that's an ironic joke BTW before the "O yeah, I'm Irish alright" brigade start up].

I mean Willie D, is not my lover, he's just the girl, who says I am the one, sorry, it always reminds me of that song, has Michael Collins and "IRA Commander" as an avatar.

Clinton was doing fundraisers for Sinn Fein and the IRA, both know terrorists groups responsible for hundreds of deaths. So terrorist or freedom fighter is just dependant on whose side you're on.

Or what about ETA in the Basque region of Spain? Where's the outrage there?


Your right about Iraq and the problems there, keep in mind no battleplan survives first engagement with the enemy. Have mistakes been made? Sure, point to a war where one wasn't. Afghanistan isn't that bad, a few problems along the Paki border. Believe or not Iraq isn't that bad either(yet), just a lot of negative news reporting. Save it, I know there is both good and bad happening there, my point is your not getting the full picture.

The battleplan wasn't so much the problem. It was a stroll against conventional Iraqii forces.

The complete lack of understanding of anything to do with Iraq, the middle east, islam, strands of islam etc was the problem.

And as for Afghanistan, its generally unwise to leave Kabul, the only safe part of the country. So that's a great success. More troops killed there everyday.

Iraq is bad. Its going to get worse. Anyone who believes anything different and believes the coalition is doing anything but trying to get out as fast as possible is again oblivious to the facts.


Such as? Most international law doesn't cover terrorist or is vague at best.

Illegal invasion. Torture. Breach of Geneva convention. Illegal covert incursions into sovereign territory. Illegal deaths in custody. Bombing civilians. There's more. Its hardly something to put on your resume.


Ok.... Well if you don't like us fuck off

We could care less how well we're liked. A lot of people(in other countries) say the Americans don't understand the world or international relations. To a degree they're right, but that critism cuts both ways, people from other countries don't understand America, and what we value and what we don't value. A lot of the worlds problems fall to our doorstep not because we want them, but where else are they going to go? U.N., Europe? [insert: smiley laughing hystaricly]

Yes you could. Many Americans and foreigners living there say America just wants to be liked, and can't understand why they are hated.

No one likes being hated. Its nice to be liked. And the classical defence mechanism is "If you don't like me, I'll hate you twice as much [unless secretly you do like me? No?] Well fuck off then."

I think as I say most other countries are so bombarded by America its hard not to know what she is all about.

Americans I have mostly found don't understand the rest of the world.

They are the big banana, so there isn't an apparent need to understand.

And that sort of arrogance about Europe and the UN seals the deal for a lot of ppl.

America is going to need friends soon. And she seems more intent on losing them. China, India and Russia are real threats to American ascendancy, and if you're going to piss off all your allies, then its going to be more difficult.


I don't know if England is considered a part of Europe or not. They seem kind of on the fence with that one. They're european when it benefits them. Spain threw in the towel on the GWOT after their attacks. Says alot about them when the French held on longer in WW2

Yeah, the English have never really fit in with Europe. They have a different mentality and ethos I think, being of English extraction I find the mainlanders have a strangeness about them.

I don't know if Spain threw in the towel. And Spain didn't surrender in WW2, they were a neutral country, like Switzerland. So again, it appears to me you've shown ignorance of the facts.


What does having military bases in S.A. have anything do with their hatred towards us? We have military base in Italy(->Rome, head of the Christian church) and yet Christians aren't going Jihadist on us. The fact is Islam fighting a civil war(well sort of) and we got dragged into it(as in Not By Choice). They wanted to kill us long before that.

Again, no offence, but you've shown a complete lack of understanding.

Most of America's culture is totally abhorent to muslims. Italians only resent America, they don't hate her.

Italy and America are relatively alike. America and the middle east are worlds apart. America and most of Islam is worlds apart.

Mecca and Medina, cities in SA if you don't know, are two of the holiest places in Islam. And for percieved infidel crusaders like America to sully them is a huge insult to Islam.

Also, I'll bring up the old chestnut. Kuwait and the middle east having oil had nothing to do with America intervening.

I mean there's at lest 10 countries in Africa at the moment that are butchering themselves in civil wars, where's the outrage? The international attention? The American intervention?

I agree with what you said.

Thanks. You should make it a habit.


But you lost it there. I don't know if you should use the word "most".

Well what then is wrong with that statement? Its probably had the best outcome to date.


Nope, just determined to see this through.

That's propoganda? See what through? On the current course of action you're creating more "terrorists" than killing them. You can't kill every muslim.

Most places that hate us are the radical left places like Europe/U.N., they don't like the fact we elected a right-winger for president, so their bent. They take their anger to such an extreme that they ignore the terrorist threat, because they don't like Bush's political "orientation"

Radical leftist? There are right wing governments in Europe. If anything the American misadventures have driven Europe to the left.

Ignore the threat? Bullshit. Bush is dangerous. Well, I should say the ppl behind Bush are dangerous.

You know Daddy Bush kept all of the crazies away from the gun cabinet? And what does Junior Bush do? Give them the keys. Rummy, Wolfie, Chenney etc. All war war war and conquest.

Just people trying to take advantage of the situation to get a few $$$$. A bunch of books came out saying Bill Clinton screwed up by not getting serious with Bin Laden earlier, it was some guy trying to cash in, nothing more, nothing less.

You could be right. Doesn't change the fact the political climate in the US has changed markedly.


A lot of has to do with the news media and the Bush's PR policy. The news media hammers the Bush Administration and he doesn't get out there to defend himself or his policies. One of my main gripes with G.Dub is his inability to communicate his thoughts/vision. When he does it, he does it well, but not often enough. Katrina was a fuck up top to bottom. Federal, State, and Local people all share blame for that one. In America there are different rules(you probably know that) that came into play during the crisis that further fouled things up. The U.S. economy is actually improving drastically. Not sure where you going with that one.

I'm no expert on the US economy. But most of what I've come across has pointed to it being in poor shape.

And the drain of Iraq at what, is it up to a trillion yet, just for Iraq, is certainly not going to help.

I think you overestimate Bush. He is a frontman, a salesman. Anytime he's ever been asked any sort of probing question about policy that is not scripted he is at a loss.

Bush would be OK as a friend, but as the most powerful man in the world he is definately not OK.

As for FEMA etc, Bush stacked it with cronies, which is where a lot of the problems started. IIRC he also ripped an awful lot of money out of it. He also totally mishandled the entire saga.

I find it hard to believe you would disagree with that.

See, if Bush was just some schlub, ppl would have eaten him by now. But Americans have this thing with the president being God-like, and that IMHO taints their collective bullshit radar. Doesn't matter if hes a complete arseclown, unleast until he gets out of office hes on an untouchable pedestool.


I'll give you that one. Our bad.

I hate urban. And I hate wiggas. Funny how afro-americans are so downtrodden yada yada, yet lead American culture in so many respects.


We actually consider you guys one of our closest allies in the world. Britain, and Japan are the other two. Hopefully no one in my country will forget that. Its too bad you guys are so far away, move your rock closer to us Canada is trying to be different from us for no other reason other than to be different.

That's a nice sentiment. But I think you might be in the minority. I've read many op-eds and vox pops etc where we're seen as quaint at best, useless at worst. But generally at best totally minor. Which is fair enough. We're 20 million, and in lots of respects hardly world leaders. Its a inferiority / superiority complex.

Australia and America are alike, but at the same time very different. If you came here you would see it immediately.

We got screwed on the FTA with the US. That despite going all the way in Iraq, Afhganistan, and for that matter being the only country in the world to go to war with the US every single time.

Its taken over a year to get a new US ambassador [Tom Scheiffer was the last one, this one is another friend of Bush's].


Hopefully the war will work out and its not pointless. Democracy is the best weapon(from a stregic stand point) that we have against terrorists. I hope you guys aren't getting shit all over, you guys got hit in Bali(well it wasn't in Australia, but alot of the people were aussies).

Jesus! Bush PR manual 101! Dude, if you believe "democracy", especially American style is going to gel in these countries you are dreaming.

Especially when its "democracy, but only if our guys get in".

Plenty of scuttlebutt about vote-rigging in various elections. And when Fatah loses and Hamas gets in the Palestine, democratically, o no, we can't have that.

The point is, all this democracy bullshit is just that, bullshit. America has been coup-agitating, vote-rigging, revolution-supporting all over the world for decades.

As hard as it is to face up to it, and as much as its going to be labelled as cutting and running and all those other bullshit terms, terrorism is only going to increase with the current course of action. America can't rule every country.

So, get out of SA. Get out of the middle east. Lean on Israel for an amicable settlement with the Palestinians. Stop poking the islamic bear, especially Iran, Syria etc. Get over the dependance on oil.

Islamic countries for the most part don't want America. If they want America, let them come. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can blow it to bits from an F-16, but then you don't have a horse, and the owner is rather ticked off.

Unless America is just going to come out and say "We're colonising, and if we take some hits so be it", then there is going to be much more trouble to come.


Don't worry about it, its Sunday, its raining, and I'm bored

P.S. I threw in the towel on spell checking this thing about half way through.

Its Monday morning here. And its raining and about 23 celcius. It was 36 celcius yesterday. Don't worry about spell checking.


I think from what you've said, if that is middle America, there is still a long way to go.

And a lot of hard lessons to learn.

Iraq will not end well and is only strenghthening and emboldening Iran. Afghanistan is going to continue to be safe only in Kabul and many more ppl will get killed. There will be more and more terrorists while America continues this aggressive stance.

Until Bush is out and a somewhat more reticent administration is put in, I think America is only going to have more and more problems. And that is bad for everybody.