Quote:

---

Thank god I live in Canada and not... oh say... Texas? I know having to register a soldering gun as a firearm is a bit of an extreme move, but this type of absolutist policy isn't such a bad idea. Better be safe than sorry I guess? Although there are the odd shootings that occur between gangs and what not in the major cities (primarily Toronto), I am proud of the fact that we have stricter gun laws than god's country to the south. In Canada you have to notify authorities when transporting your firearm to or from a shooting range and it has to be locked in a specialized compartment and not loaded at all times when it is in your home.

---

I'm glad you are happy with a government that doesn't trust its people any more than that. I on the other hand would not trust a government that did not trust honest people to have firearms.
The fact that I carry a firearm most of the time has saved my health on more than one occasion. Two of those times it was from miscreants armed with things that are not regulated in Canada. Go figure.
To each their own.

Quote:

---

They just don't seem to shoot each other so much.

---

Quote:

---

I'm with Canada.

Quote:

---

I don't think you can appreciate the joy of living in a relatively firearm free country until you've lived in one.

---

And you live where? Have you even looked at the crime stats for Australia since the big gun ban? You should check your info better; your crime rate did not go down.

Quote:

---

Some of the stuff you see come out of America just boggles the mind. It literaly makes your hair do this:

---

I agree. That’s why I'm armed.

Quote:

---

And then the even more puzzling and bemusing thing, to non-Americans anyway, is ppl and organisations like the NRA who want even more guns and more powerful guns.

---

I have never seen the NRA seek more or more powerful guns. All I ever see is an organization that fights to protect my constitutional rights. Do you have constitutionally guarantied rights in Canada or Australia?
Where do you get your information?

Quote:

---

Its a crazy crazy situation. I don't care what anyone says and how riled up anyone gets.

---

Sure you do. That's why you typed all of this very open minded and emotional diatribe.

Quote:

---

Like cops here might draw their guns once a year, if they're lucky.

---

No! If they were lucky, they would never have to draw their weapon.

Quote:

---

US cops draw their guns pretty much every job it would seem.

---

This also shows your misinformation. I have stood behind a badge in the US. You have not. TV ain't real life, you do know this right?

Quote:

---

Have I told you the story of the red mini? I forget.


Anyway, someone known to me, another friend in the job told him this little slice of Americana visits downunder.


They're on the road [on patrol], and they catch sight of this tiny red mini [I'm not sure if you know what that is, but its possibly the smallest car ever made] driving erratically.

Hello hello hello they say. Put the lights on, pull it over. Before they even run the rego on the car, about a milli-second after the car stops, out of the mini shoots five sets of black hands and ppl shouting "Don't shoot, don't shoot."

Now this is quite perplexing to a local copper. WTF is going on here?

So he strolls up to the mini, leans in, and there's these 5 huge black guys looking shit scared. Turns out later they were a visiting basketball team.

The cop leans down, totally dumbfounded, and says "What the fuck are you doing?".

The black guys all look at each other scared and confused.

After some conversation it transpires where they come from, somewhere in America, if you're black and don't put your arms out the window etc the cops think you've got a gun and are quite likely to draw weopons and possibly shoot you. The smallest thing can spook them into shooting you. As has been shown numerous times on American TV, sometimes they shoot you anyway.

Cops here are trained, two shots, bang bang. American cops again it would appear to me from American TV [left wing conspirators no doubt] it bang times 15, reload, bang times 15 again. And they have better weopons than many of the police here.

---

You watch too much TV.
Here it is shoot until the danger to the public is stopped. If you know how to shoot, that's one round. Oh and I like the very professional trained police officer in you your story, walking up to the car and saying” What the fuck are you doing?". That just makes the story more believable. Do the very professional police officers in your country often use that kind of language when they encounter members of the public?

Quote:

---

Now that is so ridiculous to cops here its a story that still brings much mirth and head-shaking to anyone who hears it. Imagine the comical aspect of five huge black guys in a tiny red mini looking like they're about to get lynched, while this tiny in comparison white local copper strolls up, casual as you like, not a worry in the world.

---

That little story is more of a testament to the background of the people in the Mini, than it is about policing in the US. But it is a funny STORY, stupid, untrue... but funny.

Quote:

---

The American thing with guns is something we find hard to understand. How can a society be so riddled with hate and mistrust that despite gun deaths up the wazzoo ppl still insist on more and more guns?

---

It is very simple. We are in charge of our government, not the other way around. And if you are looking for a few countries with hate and mistrust, may I offer Europe, South Africa, the Middle east, Russia, Pakistan the list is too long....... you get the picture.
Now please feel free to rant on my friend. Your views are very liberal but unrealistic to me. Guns are inanimate objects nothing more or less. They are no more evil than a hammer or a baseball bat or a butcher knife…ect.
People are evil. Not inanimate objects.
But hey that's just me. YMMV

Now for some interesting facts: In the US every state that passed a concealed weapons permit law has seen a drop in violent crime. Look it up yourself. Isn’t that strange, by your logic, or lack thereof, shouldn't crime have gone up?


Imagine that, crooks afraid of finding out who is or is not armed.

Quote:

---

You guys are really wearing me down, honestly.

And you live where? Have you even looked at the crime stats for Australia since the big gun ban? You should check your info better; your crime rate did not go down.

Depends on where you look and how the figures are collated. Victoria crime dropped by 25% soon after. But I don't trust the figures. Gun related crime and death are still relative rareties here thankfully.


I have never seen the NRA seek more or more powerful guns. All I ever see is an organization that fights to protect my constitutional rights. Do you have constitutionally guarantied rights in Canada or Australia?
Where do you get your information?

Yes we do. Well actually not really. The constitution is a little fudgy.

The NRA are always trying to get bans overturned etc. I get my information from various media sources.


This also shows your misinformation. I have stood behind a badge in the US. You have not. TV ain't real life, you do know this right?

Really? How bizarre. So Cops is made up? Its not my only source of information, and I know its edited for entertainment purposes, but some of the inter-juristication publications etc do make my hair stand on end.

So how many US cops do get shot dead a year?

You watch too much TV.
Here it is shoot until the danger to the public is stopped. If you know how to shoot, that's one round. Oh and I like the very professional trained police officer in you your story, walking up to the car and saying” What the fuck are you doing?". That just makes the story more believable. Do the very professional police officers in your country often use that kind of language when they encounter members of the public?


Yep, if its the right sort of public.


That little story is more of a testament to the background of the people in the Mini, than it is about policing in the US. But it is a funny STORY, stupid, untrue... but funny.

Sorry, I didn't know you'd been in the job over here.


It is very simple. We are in charge of our government, not the other way around. And if you are looking for a few countries with hate and mistrust, may I offer Europe, South Africa, the Middle east, Russia, Pakistan the list is too long....... you get the picture.
Now please feel free to rant on my friend. Your views are very liberal but unrealistic to me. Guns are inanimate objects nothing more or less. They are no more evil than a hammer or a baseball bat or a butcher knife…ect.
People are evil. Not inanimate objects.
But hey that's just me. YMMV

Now for some interesting facts: In the US every state that passed a concealed weapons permit law has seen a drop in violent crime. Look it up yourself. Isn’t that strange, by your logic, or lack thereof, shouldn't crime have gone up?

Imagine that, crooks afraid of finding out who is or is not armed.



No shaking the head icon. Darn.

You see, there is no way on earth gun nuts will ever listen.


So what is the point?

I thank my lucky stars every day I live here, honestly I do. And you probably are grateful I do live here. So we're both happy.



See this icon:

Sums up pretty much every Australian's feelings about the gun culture in the US, and every time there is some new shooting. We just don't get it.



I hope james isn't lurking in here, he's my self-appointed academic overlord, I found this in a very very quick search of google. My point is there are two sides to every coin.

http://members.aol.com/Falconnn/nramyth.html

There's plenty of interesting tid-bits in there, but this was my favourite:
An FBI report,"Crime in the United States, 1973" states that a gun kept in the home for self-defense is six times more likely to be used in a deliberate or accidental homicide involving a relative or friend than a burglar or unlawful intruder. More recently, criminologist Arthur Kellerman declared that for every case of gun use for self defense, there are 43 instances where guns are used in suicides, homicides and accidental deaths. But that number may be a bit conservative. According to Federal statistics, for every time a handgun is used by a citizen to kill a criminal, 118 innocent people are killed in handgun murders, suicides and accidents. Studies have shown that people who keep guns at home nearly TRIPLE their chances of being murdered. Whats more, a gun kept at home is 37 times more likely to be used to commit suicide than to be used for self defense. Still believe that possession of a gun makes you safer? Consider this: According to criminologist Arthur Kellermann almost 20 percent of the police officers who are fatally wounded with firearms are shot with their own gun.

Now, yes, someone jump on the voracity, accuracy, agenda etc of the article and provide another ten non-supportive stats.


In a nation with so many rifts, north versus south, black versus white, rich versus poor, [ethncity vs ethnicity], state versus state, and events like Katrina work to magnify the problems, why the hell would anyone want every crazy holmes running around packing enough fire power to kill many times over?


Again, the gun thing is just plain baffling to us. Its amusing, but then you think about how many ppl get blown away etc and its not quite as funny.


And again, I'm sure you've all heard this conversation a billion times in the US from ppl much more passionate and informed than me, so I see little point in carping on.

There is no way to win. So I'm not going to try. I will say however I do appreciate the slightly suprising lack of malice and indecency in the threads I've been silly enough to get dragged into so. I will get smart and go hide somewhere and shut my big mouth I think.

---

Just for giggles;

I have been to your country several times, and many of the people I met don't share your opinion. And not a single one ever presented an opinion such as you have. As a point of conversation, most hated the new gun ban law forced on them by their benevolent government.
I also would would try to find some stats dated later than 1973 to bolster my point, If I were on your side of the discussion. A lot of things change in 33 years.

And yes, I'm happy we, both, live where we do.

Oh and as far as being a police officer "over there" , your answer to the question about their professionalism in their use of the Queens English; depends on the color of their skin? That's what made the story smack of BS, or maybe the police, you speak of in that story, are just that unprofessional.

And you are correct a lot of people kill other people with guns, a lot of people kill themselves with guns, and way too many officers are killed in the line of duty; with guns. So by your way of thinking guns are bad. I can respect that, understand it no. Respect it yes.

But let's carry on to all deaths.....
More people are killed in cars in a week than are killed by guns in a year. Cars are bad?

More people commit suicide with prescription drugs in a year than are killed with guns. Prescription drugs are bad?

More people are killed with everyday items, knives, baseball bats, fists, hammers, ice picks, blunt objects ect...than are killed with guns. They all must be bad too.

Where do we stop the banning?

Well we can't ban cars, I bet you need them.

We can't ban prescription drugs; I bet you have needed them from time to time.

And we can't ban all the rest, there would be nothing left to work with.

You see, to me, it has nothing to do with the gun, it has to do with people, and people tend to be hard to regulate.
Bad people will always find a way to prey on the weak, blaming guns is just, in my opinion, a cop out.

But hey that's just my opinion.

Quote:

---

Just for giggles;

There's nothing on this site that doesn't make me giggle.

---

Quote:

---

You're not secretly james are you?

---

Quote:

---

Good, because you scare me.

---

Quote:

---

And if as you say you've ever been a policeman, I'd be very suprised if you treated and spoke to some lovely old lady the same way as someone who'd just tried to run you down with their car. "Fuck" and other slang is effective when used in context..

---

Quote:

---

See I can see the allure and seduction of guns. My car got broken into out front of my house, like 5 metres away from the bedroom window a couple of nights ago. If I privately owned a gun and I was an average Joe I would well have been tempted to use it.

---

Quote:

---

But cars serve a purpose. Transport, not killing.

---

Quote:

---

Drugs too. Medication.

---

Quote:

---

So everyone can own a tank?

---

Quote:

---

A nuclear missile?

---

Quote:

---

An F-16? An aircraft carrier?

---

Quote:

---

I have very little faith in human nature to not use a gun.

---

Quote:

---

Guns have been shown to make killing psychologically easier. It removes you from the victim. Other tools such as knives etc do not.

---

Quote:

---

As I say, I can how guns are seductive. They're powerful, they make little ppl big men. But the paradox of groups like the NRA etc is they love law enforcement and long prison terms etc, but then advocate a free and easy liberal approach on gun ownership.

---

Quote:

---

The old line "Guns don't kill ppl, ppl kill ppl" is all very well, but I know its a lot easier to kill a person from ten metres away with a handgun in all respects than it is to kill them from 0 metres away with a club, a knife etc.

---

Quote:

---

Ppl need protection from themselves. Which is why we have governemnts, police etc. Putting such a deadly tool in the hands of all sorts of ppl is just plain crazy.

---

Now here is where you really go off the deep end. Do a little research. We do have many laws about who can and cannot own firearms. Yes there are criminals that have guns. They are criminals; do you really think they would turn in their guns if they were outlawed? No only the good law abiding citizens would.

Now for the second part of you above statement. It is the duty of the police to protect the public, at large, not guarantee the safety of an individual. Hell that borders on stupidity to think otherwise. What are you going to do; make every third person a cop and then rotate through the other two every eight hours? Wait you might think that is a good idea.
The police do not guarantee your personal safety period. If you think they do, try to sue them when you get your ass whipped, or your car broken into, or your wife is raped because they where not there to stop it. See they prevent very little crime. Investigate after the fact, yes.
Same for the government.

I know we will never see eye to eye on this subject, for several reasons. The most important being; I take responsibility for my and my families personal safety. That is not a responsibility I would trust to anyone else, period. Nor would I shoot the guy breaking into a car, stop him most assuredly. Shoot him no, not unless he threatened my person or the person of someone else.

The simple fact is; you are comfortable giving that responsibility to others.

I am not.
I could not.
I would not.
That responsibility is mine. Ponder on that word “responsibility”.

I enjoyed the discussion, but it is one I have been in several times before and there is no end to people’s phobias about gun ownership. I respect your view. I will never share it, nor do I suspect you would ever share mine.

But think about this.
Which one of us would prevail if, person or persons unknown broke into your home with the intent on causing death and mayhem?
You can call the police and hope they arrive in time. But if they don’t , don’t worry you and your family, wont know it. But hey at least you didn’t get shot with your own gun. As I’m sure you are an honest law abiding citizen.
Me I’ll call the morgue, and after the police get through investigating, I’ll tuck my family back in bed.

You have no need to fear me as long as you are not trying to harm me or mine. Oh and my firearms are inanimate objects, they do nothing until I act.

Now let's just let this go.


Or we could continue on forever.

Quote:

---

---

So you're ex green beret now?

I'm sorry, but pretty much every American I've ever met used to be in the military, and there are seemingly more special ops in the US military than actual US military.

Is there anyone in America who wasn't in the military? Is there anyone in the military who wasn't special ops? Isn't there a special ops for laundry staff? You know, for dangerous missions to the back of the clothes dryer to pacify and neutralize insurgent lint build-up? The horror, the horror.


I had a feeling it would come out sooner or later.

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/centurion.htm



Sometimes it really irks me how often ppl fail to suprise me. I'm suprised you managed to hold on for that long. So that's something I guess.

If you actually look like that now that would just about finish me off.

Quote:

---

So you're ex green beret now?

---

Quote:

---

I'm sorry, but pretty much every American I've ever met used to be in the military, and there are seemingly more special ops in the US military than actual US military.

---

Quote:

---

Is there anyone in America who wasn't in the military? Is there anyone in the military who wasn't special ops? Isn't there a special ops for laundry staff? You know, for dangerous missions to the back of the clothes dryer to pacify and neutralize insurgent lint build-up? The horror, the horror.

---

Quote:

---

I had a feeling it would come out sooner or later.

---

Quote:

---

Sometimes it really irks me how often ppl fail to suprise me. I'm suprised you managed to hold on for that long. So that's something I guess.

---

Quote:

---

If you actually look like that now that would just about finish me off.

---

Quote:

---

has an angry, almost genetic loathing for privilege, greed, social exploitation, racism, sexism, homophobia, pro-lifers, the religious right, environmental degradation, the NRA, US imperialism, multinational corporations, big business, Republicans in general and George Bush in particular.

---

Quote:

---

She ardently believes there is no enormity of which the United States is incapable and regards its entire history as an unbroken legacy of avarice, deceit and injustice.

---

Quote:

---

...her extremely predictable and tedious attacks eventually exhaust even those inclined to support her.

---

Quote:

---

Nice Cerberus(T.D.) It's becoming chronic condition with this Melb_Mehoff guy.
I've just gotta say . . . .


. . . . again.

---

Firstly Floof, I enjoyed the hippnotoad much more than the old black blues guy.

You seemed so much nicer and subtely funnier then. Might just be me. I miss Hypnotoad Floof. So understated, yet timing an occaisonal bomb that was just right and funnier than anything anyone else managed to come up with.

I miss that guy.


Anyway, just read my latest reply to Cerberus. It mentions you specifically, and why it is you feel I was "owned".


I understand where you're coming from. I think I can possibly understand why you're coming from there. There are many long long long winded and boring philosophical, sociological, anthropological and psychological musings that I will thankfully save you all from.

I know its a world outside porn, but let's face facts, most of you are just here to jerk your banana.



I got that one for james. He loves my bananananananaing.



But its still pretty perplexing for a non-American. Even someone who has a reasonably sound knowledge of America and its culture, for someone who doesn't live there.

I've been there though. Different from here in many ways. And as I say, very puzzling and perplexing in many ways.


But then they [Americans] say America is in effect 50 countries linked by interstates.

That is to say California is different from New York is different from Idaho is different from Utah is different from Florida etc. Even nocal and socal are supposedly chalk and cheese.


Man, I used to talk with this guy from Boston, and he used to get so angry with me when I'd say "Americans" or "America" when talking about Bush or Iraq or whatever.

Now he, he was pretty much on board with everything I've so far said. I'm pretty sure he wasn't gay, communist, a terrorist, a flag-burner etc. Though being from Boston who can tell. I mean the Kennedy clan is from Mass-a-chew-sits, so the whole state is shit. So they all must be too.



One would think talking about America on a board dominated by American right wing types is being on a hiding to nothing. But I'd like to think I could learn something, apart from 100 000 different ways ppl can tell you to get fucked.

But I'm stubborn like that.

Quote:

---

I'm actually starting to like you Phlog. Just don't ever come down here. Having Dixie Normous running around makes me feel scared and small. I want to hide under my bed until all my twoubles go away.

I like you more the further away you are.



Yes, very amusing. I wondered how long it would be before someone turned my flame wars references against me.


Well, the beauty of Flame Wars is that there's at least one character for everyone.


I found Troglodyte for you.

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/troglodyte.htm


Troglodyte seems to have emerged from the mists of time untouched by human evolution. Devoid of a single progressive idea and lacking the slightest awareness of social and cultural advances, Troglodyte has developed an incoherent political philosophy that he characterizes as "conservative" or "libertarian", but which could be more accurately described as "bigoted narcissism". His aggressive posturing often frightens off weaker, more timid Warriors. In pitched battle, however, Troglodyte easily loses control and his attack quickly degenerates into a rant. Just for the fun of it, Weenie, Issues. Pinko and Evil Clown will sometimes deliberately goad him into a towering rage.

I liked especially how it mentions pinko loves to prod troglodyte. That was an unintentional funny. I also like how it can be applied to the entire "Team America" gang going on in this thread.


That site is actually pretty funny.

---