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Eli Cross posts on ADT: Okay, somebody, somewhere has to have the sack to sound the alarm... run up the white flag... call a truce... be willing to be the bad guy... whatever. But something has to stop. Someone has to put the brakes on this thing that's going 'round the porn industry.
Performer's rates are out of fucking control. We're at the tail end of what many people are calling the worst summer, business-wise, they can ever remember in the porn business. Companies big and small -- Redlight, Metro, Legend, DVSX, etc. -- stopped shooting altogether because there was no money coming in to fund production. Even majors like Vivid slowed production to a minimum.
Everyone -- everyone -- has seen sales hit the shitter this summer. DVDs are down, websites are dropping off, VOD is taking it in the shorts. No one has any work (three of you have e-mailed me in the past four days looking for gigs, so you know I speak the truth).
Add to that a fucking government full of religious whackos who want to put us all out of business anyway, and are desperately trying to do just that via the new 2257 regs (you have to know that the current 2257 raids are just a precursor to obscenity prosecutions; one more thing they can add to the pile to ensure a plea bargain rather than a fight when they take the producer to court).
And those producers who areshooting want one thing: cheaper product. A bigger margin. Lower budgets. Period. Had a meeting with a producer last week who had one goal... It wasn't excellent product. It wasn't award-winning product. It was $15,000 product. Good, bad or indifferent, he just wanted it cheap. And he's the rule, not the exception.
So, given an atmosphere where many rational people would be glad to have jobs at all, what are a lot of performers doing? Jacking up their rates, naturally. And I'm not talking $100 increases... Nor am I talking brand-new chicks who think they're the next Jenna and want $2,000 for a fucking boy/girl scene (incidentally, how's that working out for ya, Amy? Oh... you're taking a break, and might be retired? Good career move, hon).
I'm talking about guys. Who want $1,000 per scene. More than most girls get for a straight boy/girl. Guys who were $700 this time last year. What. The. Holy. Motherfuck. Is. Going. On?!?
I understand wanting to make your rate. It happens in mainstream all the time... you spend your time looking for a producer who'll make your rate so you're not stuck with your rate from 1985 forever. But a fucking 33% increase? Gimme a break! Then you want to tell me it's for a second scene? You are fucking high. Not on my show. Not now, not ever.
A big feature that takes the entire day when you could normally do two scenes? Sure. But for two hours of your time on a gonzo set? I'd rather shoot girl/girl from now until the sun goes cold.
And you guys with the platinum cocks, you do remember that it's the girls that sell the movies, right? I know you don't believe it, but unless you're one of four guys in this business (bonus points if you can name the four; there are also three runners-up; no, I'm not one of them), no one, anywhere, is buying that movie just because you're in it. Other than possibly you.
Let's repeat that: Guys, you are a prop. No one buys a movie because your name is on the box. No one cares about anything but your cock working properly, me included. It's harsh, but it's true. Suck it up. You want to be The Man, go into a different line of work.
Now comes the bit that really makes your head asplode... some of these guys... with the out-of-control rates... are brand-fucking-new! Been making movies for a few weeks! Maybe a few months?!? I'm just screaming at my monitor right now... Who the fuck do you think you are?!?Is there no end to the fevered fucking egos that feed the cocks in this business? Is there no sense of proportion? So you've got a big dick and a few girls think you're great, the fuck I care! I won't pay Tommy Byron $1,000 and he's a fucking legend! (Nothing personal, Tom... I love you, I just don't have the budgets, and you don't care anyway).
So you want to pay $1,000 for Mr. Frenchy, go to it... he's been around for years, he's a great performer, and his dick is huge (and looks like a Sharpei). You want to hire the big, bald Englishman for that 1k? Great... he's been around for over a decade and throws a killer scene. You want to pay $900 for the Uber-German who can pop 11 times in one day? Good for him. He's another perennial. I won't pay it, much as I love him, but apparently others will.
But please, for the love of Bob, stop with the fresh-off-the-boat new guys who want these jacked-up rates. Who in their right mind is paying this? Why? Fuck him and fuck his mother and fuck the horse she rode in on, and fuck you, too, for paying. He needs his ego deflated and you need a swift kick in the ass.
Listen people, this "recession-proof" business we're all in is currently hanging on by its grubby fingernails. And it's nothing personal. If I had my way, we'd all be making millions on every movie and living in mansions, but facts is facts, and money is money. Rates keep climbing, sales keep dropping and budgets keep diminishing. Do the math. Anyone else see a problem, here, or am I the retard in this scenario?
>Quasarman writes: Normally I wouldn't involve myself in this type of thing BUT....
Apparently it's been a bad summer for some people in the biz but not ALL people in the biz. My schedule has not slowed down at all. That's not to say that we're the greatest company in the world yadayadayada.. but it is a fact that some companies out there have not felt this "black summer of 06". As far as the rates for talent go, it's a free market. I just shot Amy Reid in two scenes today at her exhorbitant rate; why? because the amount of pieces we sell justifies the expenditure.
Again, I'm not trying to say "we sell tons of movies and you don't" but we sell enough that we can afford to pay Amy Reid, Jenna Haze etc. what they ask for. Amy told me what Jules paid her for an anal scene and I almost passed out. Assuming what she said is true, he can clearly afford it and it's obviously worth it to him.
Do I wish rates were cheaper? Hell yes but that's the cost of doing business as things stand today. If the talent were feeling the pinch they'd be the first ones to drop their price but apparently there's enough people shooting, even during "the summer that time forgot", that are willing to pay their rates. When they price themselves beyond the reach of enough companies, they will work less and less and their rates will drop. That's Capitalism in action. As a camerman/Director I want to make as much money as I possibly can. You can't blame the talent for wanting the same thing.
> Porn Scout writes: In response to the original post, what you are seeing is market saturation. Lots of companies shooting porn competing for talent and market share. Competition for talent drives the price of talent up, especially reliable male talent of the well-hung variety, and female talent whose picture or name on a box cover can incent sales and move product. Competition for market share means, essentially, that people like me can hang out and wait for the product we want to come down in price to a level that we're willing to pay for. That's great for me, but it also means that retailers are seeing their margins get squeezed. Now, the smart retailers have been keeping track of their sales and watching the industry closely and they know all about this shit because the trend has been pretty damn obvious for a while. At some point, presumably, the smart ones started responding to the market in a rational way, probably through some combination of paying less for product, buying fewer units, or by selecting the product they buy more carefully. My guess is that eventually, the stupid retailers figured this out too, and so they started doing the same thing, and I'm guessing that's what you're seeing going on out there right now.
> K writes:Aww, shucksiepoo; someone can't shift enough movies, and it's got to be someone else's fault?
If this Amy can get others to pay her fee, why the feck should she reduce her rates for you or anyone else who can't afford her? If a performer can't cut it, don't hire him/her. If you can't sell your product, get out of the business.
Those companies you mentioned: Redlight, Metro, Legend, DVSX, etc.; could it perhaps be that their product has gone down the crapper?
It doesn't sound like Quasarman is feeling the pinch. What about Digital Playground? Evil Angel? My 2 cents. As I've said before, I could be wrong.
>Tyler Knight writes: It's funny, I remember having this conversation with Yani a month ago, when I went from 30 scenes a month to 10 almost instantly. I was on the verge of doing Summer stock. :-) I agree 99 % with Eli. A GOOD, and I emphasize GOOD male talent is much more than just a prop. You only really appreciate the good ones after spending 3 hrs with some woodless noob, and it's only scene 2 of 4 scheduled for the day ,however I get your point. (Had to defend my profession, lol)It's without a doubt the girls who are the main product. That being said, I have absolutely no problem adjusting my rate to reflect the current enviornment in which our industry now finds itself, and have done so often recently, to ensure that I have minimal blank days on my calendar. Even to the point of lowering my rate 25 % to ensure multiple bookings. Economies of scale. I'm in this for profit, not ego. Fear not Eli. The market will weed out the price gougers. Especially the mediocre performers during our current lull. Laws of attrition...
>Rogue writes: A bit unrelated to the thread's theme, but i am pretty sure this "current lull" in American porn will go on for some time. The years from 2001 to mid-2005 (Keri Sable leaving gonzo is a symbolic end of that period for me) were excellent, but then there was a marked decline in quality in the last year and consumers have noticed. I pinpoint the cause of this decline to to the fact that there aren't enough worthy new girls in the business to keep things moving. Some of them are good and have attracted attention, but most can't hold a candle to the likes of Taylor Rain, Teagan, Keri Sable, Shyla Stylez, Aurora Snow, Belladonna etc. etc. back in the day. I don't know why there isn't an influx of good replacement girls in the LA biz, someone who works there might enlighten us.
Personally, i have stopped caring about current American porn with a few exceptions. I still go back to the good 2001-2005 stuff and i follow the current Euro porn, which features a fresh crop of excellent girls, that apparently many american companies are oblivious of.
>Alexander Portnoy writes: Performers voluntarily lowering their rates will not solve fundamental economic problems facing porn. As many have already noted the down market will decrease the demand for talent and lower demand will over time drive down talent rates. As T knight can attest to. So that's a problem that will take care of itself.
In the meantime, companies need to adjust to changing market conditions. The consolidation trend, not performer rates is biggest threat facing smaller producers. The P-boyClubJ merger + the decision at Vivid and Wicked to go after the gonzo market will make the 'big guys' even bigger. Who wasn't shocked by the news that a 'Darksided of Julia Ann,' movie was in the works? But, I don't think this was a panic move on Wicked's part. Given the current economic climate this makes perfect sense. Yes even the big guys have had to make cuts, but at the same time this market provides them with the perfect opportunity to pick off the more vulnerable competition. It's a game called monopoly.
> payday writes: Yah. I think the leaders in the industry are just slapping some shiny new paint on old turds at this point. The gonzo genre is so tired..We've seen everything from fists in cummy buttholes to sperm in eye sockets to knuckles in the back of the head.
The real break through will be to introduce a new type of fan/buyer to the industry. Not just the fanboy types that want to see Girl A, do Sex Act F.. That way the product is not so focused on one small, almost insignificant group of people....
The mom and pop, hand-to-mouth producers need to come up with a strategy that allows them to survive in this environment. Lower performer rates might be a quick fix, but, six or twelve months from now you'd find yourself back in the same boat.
> saratoga 120 writes: I think producers should pay more attention to the spectrum of sexual fetishes widely researchable on the web.
They should then incorporate as many of these as practical into their movies. And I'm not referring to, say, double anal as a fetish. I mean things that appealed to boys and girls as they were just becoming pubescent which they've carried with them into adulthood as symbols of sexuality.
Smoking is obviously one, but so might something like a girl painting her toenails or wearing hoop earrings. These are all activities that girls on the cusp of their sexual blossoming started indulging just as guys began to notice them in a sexual way.
> Pagoda writes: Somebody mentioned that the only thing to truly improve the market will be to find a new customer-segment. Pornographers and fans still say that porn is "all about the girls." That's true; to most male fans. But to many female fans, current and prospective, it's all about chemistry. I don't give a shit whether or not a girl is "fresh and new" or if she's "shot out" or if she's already worked with the same male talent 12 times. I want to see believable sex that looks like it's good for both (or all) partners on the screen. The industry will never gain a substancial female customer base if they continue to marginalize us.
You know why the top studs can command a high rate? Yeah, they're dependable on set, etc, but it's really because they have female fans and gay fans. Female fans are loyal. And, if a guy works well with a particular female star, we'll buy every title those two are in together. Unfortunately, due to this attitude that female talent are basically disposable, with only a 3-4 year shelf life at most, with few exceptions, we rarely get a chance to see multiple pairings between male and female talent that work well together.
I've been at ADT for a while now, and I've come to note that many male fans always want something new. They want surprises. Whereas I and my girlfriends, and some of the men here at ADT, want to know what we're getting. The male talent are NOT simply props, especially the good ones. They set the tone for the scene, because it takes two to tango. Fans that look for heat and chemistry (I'm not talking hearts and flowers, stupid plots or romantic bullshit), but genuine sparks and passion, look for certain names in the male cast.
Hell, just look at some of the polls on here. If there's a poll about sexiest mainstream movie-stars, you'll see posts of long, long lists by some some male ADT members, and when most of us women post, our lists are short. And most of us have admired or lusted after those particular men for a long time. Again, loyalty. Return customers. THAT is where the money is, and it's just sitting in the purses of an entire gender of potential customers that nobody seems interested in courting. That's idiotic.
On an unrelated note, I have a radical theory about the dip in sales this year. Over 100,000 of the industry's most consistently dependable customers are stuck in Iraq where they can't get any porn. Not to mention all the civilian contractors. A big chunk of the American military, historically voracious consumers of porn, can't buy the product right now.
Put enough of them in one movie and I've got to think a previously passive audience will go ga-ga to see as many ladies as possible toying with their locked up secrets.
> Jewel De'Nyle writes: No one's worth what these new girls are getting they are nobodys and don't even have a name so why use them??? I won't pay girls super rates if I don't think they are worth it. If you want to charge 2 grand then I better get my money's worth or I'll make sure like hell you work for it. I pay guys the most 600 for my shot's as they are easy and girl for a DP 1200 those who won't work for these rates I don't hire. I've passed on several girls who I didn't feel were worth more then that. I agree all of us need to just stop shooting them at these stupid rates and let them realize what they are really worth. I was a damn good performer and never did I ask something so out of the ball park. I worked for whatever just to work no matter if it was a five hundred dollar job or a thousand dollar job. I think us older girls did it for more then just the money. Today's girls and guys are spoiled and haven't paid any dues to get such high rates.
>Tricia Devereaux writes:I certainly wouldn't pay the same amount for an unproven girl as I would for someone like Jenna Haze. I also wouldn't pay as much for a robotic or lame guy as I would for someone like Mr. Pete or Manuel.
You get what you pay for, and if the performers raise their prices TOO high, they won't find enough work, and the market will adjust itself. When Evil Angel first started shooting in Europe, all the European porn companies HATED us. Because we paid the girls about double or more than that what the European companies were paying them. Then the girls expected that from the European companies too. Know what, within 5 or 10 years, the European companies have also realized that you get what you pay for. And if a girl (or guy) doesn't feel like she got ripped off by a producer, she's more willing to give 100%.
For me, it's always been about quality more so than quantity. Even when the quantity we're talking about refers to $$$.
>Steve Holmes writes:I don't understand why Eli Cross got so furious. None of us to expensive guys call him up for a job.
Tomorrow I shoot three scenes for my next movie and I use only expensive guys. It is my choice. Nobody forces me. But I rather pay Manuel Ferrara 1k than some other guys $600 because I know what I get.
I know also that you sell the movie for the girl. But for the movie making perspective the guy is more important. I've seen lame scenes with great girls when the have the wrong partner.
Just two weeks ago I spend more money on a girl than ever. 3k, but I felt she was worth it. Again, nobody forced me to do it.
> Chico Wang writes:I understand the key arguments presented here but it sort of dissipates when I sometimes have a tendency to shoot around the clock when I have the feeling. For example, in the six weeks preceding the middle of July, I shot about 34 video scenes and approximately 80 Internet scenes. It behooves me to think that someone can call me, announce his rate is some ridiculous number, let's say $800 a scene, when they strike deals for $500 - $600 elsewhere. Not only do they lose the potential of shooting for me on a regular basis and, trust me, I am one of the quickest, fastest shooters out there because of my lack of patience on set, but in the long run, they lose out because, trust me, I'm going to be here for a while.
People like Steve Holmes, Tony T., John Strong, James Deen: these guys maintain their rate and keep it because of their level of performance. And when they do catch a rare bad scene, they will compromise with the director because it wasn't of the level they're capable of.
I'm talking about all those knuckleheads out there who switch from rate to rate. They're the ones going to pay the piper sooner or later because of their escalating and de-escalating pay scales depending on the producers. Again, I only work with male talent I enjoy shooting. Bring ego or some bullshit onto the set, and I will throw you off. Once again, I won't name names but I have a 'ban' list a page deep of bratts that change their rates depending on shooters.
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